groups opening up

[jaybray]

These five shot groups are what I can duplicate at 100 yards on a fairly regular basis. Not the best by any means I know. I have yet to use wind flags but am going to start soon. This 6br has now just shy of 2000 rounds through it. When I shoot the same load at 200 yards the groups fall apart to 1 to 2 inches. Sometimes 3 shots to a cluster and the last 2 out horizontal and low to the right. Doesn't matter which way the wind blows always horizontal and low to the right. Barrel at the end of it's life? The Operator? No wind flags but this is very consistent what happens at 200 and yet no problems at 100 yards with this rifle.

 

[cocopuff]

what twist is your barrel?
what bullet is that your using?

 

[jaybray]

8 twist with 107 matchkings

 

[cocopuff]

If it makes you feel better,I to am having trouble getting a stable
load with that same bullet and twist.I have been trying Re 15.
I think it is a matter of getting the correct receipe......I will be trying
H 4895 next time or maybe Varget..The first thing you need to
elemanate is shooter error..We all have it...It takes a lot of range time
to develope a good repeatable form..And lots of talking to yourself..lol

 

[LHSmith]

I disagree, the first thing you need to do is use wind indicators and learn how to use them. FACT: wind and mirage affects bullet POI. Ask any accomplished BR competitor and they will tell you it is extremely rare to shoot a small group without altering POA based on feedback from the flags and mirage activity on the target. The best bench manners and most stable shooting platform ever created will not get you where you want to be without learning to dope conditions.

 

[johara1]

+1 on what LHS said and from the pics ……. i see vertical in one group, load and or mirage and or tail or head wind and the top group mirage and or wind …….. jim

 

[jaybray]

Yeah I better invest in some flags no doubt. Rifle has a 36x sightron big sky on it and I love it when its cloudy but when the sun is full bore the mirage is insane and gives me fits. I fired off 20 rounds today and instead of my edgewood rear bag I used a cheap shooters choice rear bag I had lying around just to see any improvement by changing bags and there was a noticeable one. The edgewood rear bag is obviously not right for my stock. Wrong spacing between the ears I guess. The bottom of the stock always rides on the stitching so must have contributed to some of the horizontal I had. I got no where near the horizontal that I had with the edgewood rear bag. No wind flags but at least all 5 shot groups were under an inch at 200. Most groups were 3 in a cluster or almost and 2 shots low to the right with each hole just touching. Need flags and have to work on bench manners and mirage reading. I hate mirage. Or just shoot 3 shot groups!!

 

[Ggmac]

Dumb question , are you adjusting parallax to your eyes or just using the 200 setting on the scope ?

 

[jaybray]

No im adjusting parallax to my eyes. The 200 yard mark on the scope is not even close.

 

[LawrenceHanson]

It would be helpful to know a bit more about your situation. Have you recently started shooting at 200 yards? Are your groups consistently about the same size and shape at 200 yards from day to day? Or was this a one-time occurrence? Is your 200 yard range flat or are you shooting over the top of a 100 yard berm? Are there berms all the way around the edges of your range? Are there big gaps in the tree line? Are you shooting at 100 yards in the calm of the morning and then moving out to 200 yards later in the day? Most guys are quick to question their equipment or load when environmental factors and the physical features of the range often make a significant difference in accuracy at 200 versus 100 yards. This is where wind flags can really help you understand the wind patterns at your range and the effect it has on your groups at 200 yards.

Considering you’re not using wind flags, and assuming you’re new to shooting at 200 yards, I think you’re actually doing fairly well. Contrary to popular internet forum lore, not everybody puts them all through the same hole all day long. If you attend a few benchrest matches, or review the benchrest match reports, you will see that even those guys shoot 1” to 2” groups at 200 yards now and then.

 

[jaybray]

I am going to the range tomorrow with surveyor tape and 2 sticks for wind flags to at least start with something till I get some real wind flags. I'm sure this is where my problem lies. I read enough today to at least understand what to look for when using them.

 

[jaybray]

To experienced shooters such as most of you on this forum, the use of wind flags is a no brainer. I have continued to read posts on their use and never realized their importance. So in a nut shell trying to shoot consistent half and three quarter inch groups at 200 yards is dream land with out wind flags. A person will shoot some half inch and smaller groups at 200 and I have done it myself without them but consistently it's not gonna happen. Many 107 matchkings cci 450 primers and varget were wasted in thinking my horizontal flyers were everything but the wind. Around my parts a normal day at the range the wind will blow your gun case of the table and gets worse from there. No wonder I would get 2 inch horizontal groups. Ill start with this el cheapo wind flag set up and report back with results once I figure them out.

 

[LawrenceHanson]

A very good shooter at my club uses wind flags similar in design to what you are talking about…music stand tripods with several strips of surveyor ribbon on top of each one. He uses five of them out to 200 yards.

Surveyor ribbon is typically plastic and can be found in various thicknesses. You may find that one thickness, heavier or lighter, is more useful than another depending on the conditions in your part of the country. Cutting the ribbon so that it nearly touches the ground will give you all the ribbon you can use and not drag in the grass. It’s best to learn to shoot with both eyes open in order to continuously observe your flags and any other flags that may be on the field.

Best of luck to you in your pursuit of precision shooting.

 

[jaybray]

Thank you Sir and thanks for the tips on the flags. I can see once a person starts shooting with flags and sees positive results, there's no turning back.

 

[tobycoda]

you know it all makes some sense to use flags..But what good are they in reality if you don't know how much wind there is...Take the tape for instance...Will a 1 mp wind move it so far...And a 10 mp so far...without knowing this your still at a loose.....We do not use flags at our 300 yard range...Take your flags away and your helpless...lol...But you see what I'm trying to say here...You have to know the speed in order to make adjustments..Look at the balistic charts.....

 

[LHSmith]

Wind intensity is measured by the tail (ribbon, tape) angle.....use the same tail material (Benchrest guru's use new tape for each match) ....this method is repeatable, and I don't really care if the wind speed is actually 2 mph, or 5 mph. When the tail is measured in a 90' arc, you can get pretty accurate by reading the tails as follows: 0' = calm, 45' = mild push, 90' = stiff wind. If your area is typically windy use heavier tail material ( i.e. sailtails)

 

[LawrenceHanson]

Being able to visualize the relative wind intensity is just one advantage of using wind flags. Where I shoot, the wind is dynamic or constantly changing in intensity and direction. If I miss a 180 degree change in wind direction my group may double in size with one poorly timed shot. You are correct in stating that we are at a loss without wind flags.

 

[LHSmith]

you know it all makes some sense to use flags..But what good are they in reality if you don't know how much wind there is...Take the tape for instance...Will a 1 mp wind move it so far...And a 10 mp so far...without knowing this your still at a loose.....We do not use flags at our 300 yard range...Take your flags away and your helpless...lol...But you see what I'm trying to say here...You have to know the speed in order to make adjustments..Look at the balistic charts.....

It all depends on what level of accuracy you are trying to achieve. If your club has 300 yd shoots w/o flags that serves as practice for varmint shooting, that's a good thing. But, keeping everything in perspective, hitting a varmint size target at 300 yards vs. hitting the "X" on a 300 yard target (which measures 3/16" on an IBS score target) requires different levels of precision.
In the OP's case, he is looking to gain the maximum repeatable accuracy possible with his 6 BR....and the only way to accomplish this is to learn to dope conditions.
Like I said earlier, the actual wind velocity means nothing to me. I just want to "see" what the wind is doing in real time at several locations along the bullet path. When I see a "condition" that cycles (repeats), I'll shoot a sighter shot or two to see POI. As long as I shoot when the flags show the same,( and there is no mirage), the POI will be the same providing I have a tuned load in a gun that I can trust, and my bench technique was error free. No ballistics to memorize, no wind speed gauges to monitor........Sighter shots trump any exterior ballistics data found in charts.
My flags utilize daisy wheels. The daisy's help show wind speed and direction in a head or tail wind, since the flag tails will be hidden in these conditions. It is a lot of information to digest (so start out with just a few flags). To make absolute best use of flags, one has to learn to shoot "both eye's open", which usually requires a lot of practice.
As L. Hanson stated about a full reverse doubling group size, it will happen, but at least you know the cause ( not the gun or load), and you can learn to trust your gun.....which is a HUGE step in learning how to shoot small. Now you can advance to learning mirage reading skills.

 

[jaybray]

Went out today and used 2 flags one at 50 and one at 100 yards. The wind was all over the place and the best condition I could find was when the wind stopped for maybe 5 seconds and the flags hung straight down. Not easy using them at first and shooting with both eyes open isn't happening for a bit. Before I just shot at random and now im going to keep at these flags. I thought id post one more target just because. Still not great and the barrel has quite a few rounds through it but I did better with these cheap flags then with out them. I stretched it out a bit and these were all shot at 280 yards. No idea what the wind was doing that far out though.

 

[LHSmith]

Although counter-intuitive, it is "usually" best to find a condition with some consistent "push". Dangling tails hanging straight down w/o even a wiggle will produce a few close together, but one or two may go out of group. I would get efficient with flags @ 100/ 200 yds first. You must teach yourself to keep them in your periphery while pulling the trigger. Some days it is difficult to find a decent condition, but start calling your shots based on what you believe the flags are telling you and adjust if necessary. Eventually your hold-off will become second nature.