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Groupings with different primers and cases??

  • Thread starter Thread starter mram10
  • Start date Start date

mram10

I am interested to hear of SCIENTIFIC evidence and studies you have done that show how much groups were affected by the following:
Different brand primers and how they affect MV
Different brand cases (example- shooting remington vs winchester case, all things equal)

I am looking for numerical data only please. Thank you
 
Here is a quick one. Not sure if this is what you are looking for. Have others, this one was just handy. Usually try a primer change in load workup to see if there is something worth investigating.

100 yd target with velocity data in pencil written on target. Load was worked up for a BR2 primer. Tried to see what a primer change would do.

My experience, considering accuracy on paper and velocity is the primer DOES matter. This is just one example of perhaps a dozen I've personally done.
 

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There is no such thing as scientific evidence in reloading.
It is all anecdotal, as observed one way and another.
 
skiutah02 said:
Here is a quick one. Not sure if this is what you are looking for. Have others, this one was just handy. Usually try a primer change in load workup to see if there is something worth investigating.

100 yd target with velocity data in pencil written on target. Load was worked up for a BR2 primer. Tried to see what a primer change would do.

My experience, considering accuracy on paper and velocity is the primer DOES matter. This is just one example of perhaps a dozen I've personally done.
Definitely a start. I am looking for larger groups and further distances to find strong evidence. Thank you
 
mikecr said:
There is no such thing as scientific evidence in reloading.
It is all anecdotal, as observed one way and another.

Not sure how you can say this, but there is always one :)
 
I consider the context of 'scientific evidence' as 'truthful', and it is a fact that only truths pass all tests.
Whenever someone manages to isolate truths, they typically define them with math, which is validated in prediction.
Good luck finding this in reloading.

There is no credible scientific evidence, or prediction, with regard to primer or case affects to grouping(which is an abstract in itself).
This is the answer to the question you posed.

If you really just wanted discussion (anecdotal observations) then you should ask for this.
 
A Match Primer Study in the 30-06 Cartridge
By Germán A. Salazar

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/06/primers-large-rifle-primer-study.html

A Match Primer Study in the 6BR Cartridge
By Germán A. Salazar

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/06/primers-small-rifle-primer-study.html
 
my experience with 22-250 note the 9 1/2 vs fed match

fwiw - I found this to be true on more than these groups, just had this target scanned, note also the powder effect was less.

tryin to add picture of groups but don't know how to reduce them from 166kb to below the 164 limit -
group with 9 1/2 and 414 was .106, 91/2 and 4064 .156 and group with 414 and fed match was near 3.4 with flyers.
Bob
 
Straight comparisons based on group sizes are misleading as changing the primer affects the powder burn characteristics, hence group size. The load may have to be fine-tuned in effect to suit the primer, and even then the results would only apply to that single combination of cartridge, bullet weight/model, and powder make/grade.

There are so many variables involved in this that no sane person would wish to take it on board even for a single cartridge. What can be shown is the effect on internal ballistics for a single cartridge / load combination / rifle and different primers affect both the average MV value and the ES / SD values. They may have little real relevance to the short-range competitor as some combinations with terrible ES values can also provide the smallest average group size in a particular rifle. They are of great interest to the L-R competitor where large velocity spreads = vertical dispersion on the target. This is particularly so where a single 'recipe' is used, a good example being Palma shooting (.308 Win of course) where the US teams used to load Winchester brass, F210M, 155gn Sierra MK, and 40-something grains H. VarGet. Lapua was requested to produce small primer / small dia. flash-hole match brass and this reduced ES values by ~ a third, a great success now used by the teams exclusively and Lapua putting its 'Palma' brand brass into production.

I've recently tested 16 LR and LRM primers in 308 Win in a single FTR rifle using 100 RWS cases, 168gn Hornady HPBT Match bullets, 44.0gn Viht N140 from a single production lot. 17 round batches were loaded to plus or minus 0.04gn charge variance using Acculab scales, two rounds fired as foulers starting with a clean barrel, then 15 MVs recorded.

Average MVs covered a 35 fps range from 'mildest' to 'hottest' primer (2,780 fps lowest / 2,815 fps highest) and ES/SD values ranged from excellent to dire with the best barely in double figure ES and the worst >40 fps. The average of three 5-round 100yd groups varied, but not by a great amount, and bore NO relationship to the primer's ballistic consistency, the worst / hottest performer producing the smallest average group value!

This was not a 'scientific' test in any way. To do that would have required far larger samples, an indoor temperature controlled environment, selected and fully prepped brass re-annealed after every firing, (or only new brass from a single production lot used for a single test firing) and likely two new identical barrel blanks with identical chambering swapped after a certain round count!

Even then, it would only count for 308 Win with the 168gn Hornady and Viht N140 in a particular spec match barrel with a single chamber and throat configuration. Changing the powder to say VarGet and working a new load up for it might or might not change relative primer rankings. (Actually, likely not too much - but swapping .300 WSM or RUM for 308 Win would be another matter entirely!)

It did show that primer choice does matter (quelle surprise!), that generally magnum primers aren't a great idea in a .308 match load (but not that they always give high MVs), that CCI-BR2 and Fed 210M primers (in my lots at any rate) performed significantly better than their F210 and CCI-200 standard equivalents.

Come next summer, I'll do it all again using Lapua Palma brass and Small Rifle primers, but likely with a different bullet -powder combination, as this is being done on the cheap with what would otherwise be spare barrel life and cartridge components. It will definitely be a different rifle as the 308 Win job that was used will be 7mm-08 in a matter of weeks.
 
Laurie I haven't done any scientific test as of yet, but with the powder I have just changed to in the 300 WSM changing from a Fd-210 to a FD-215 changed the velocity by 100 fps. So at long range there is definitely going to be a change.

Joe Salt
 
Maybe if you outline the parameters of the testing. That you consider SCIENTIFIC some guys may have some information to share.
Don't just wait for guys to post their testing then say that's not SCIENTIFIC.

Better yet work up the test procedure then follow it thru
 
bigedp51 said:
A Match Primer Study in the 30-06 Cartridge
By Germán A. Salazar

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/06/primers-large-rifle-primer-study.html

A Match Primer Study in the 6BR Cartridge
By Germán A. Salazar

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/06/primers-small-rifle-primer-study.html

I read these articles and I think they are excellent examples of what it takes to obtain data using good science and what is meant by the scientific method. It is not impossible as some have responded here but extremely difficult and requires a lot of time and effort. Some folks thought it was impossible to go to the moon, but it was possible, just difficult, and it took a lot of science and as Elmer Keith said, "Hell I was there!".
 
Note though in the German Salazar article that the truly 'scientific' bit of testing is high-speed primer flame photography. This wasn't new when German did it for the Rifleman's Journal, and while it is very 'clever', uses some impressive kit and techniques, was not uncontroversial. German says that the great man of postwar rifle cartridge behaviour research and seeker after precision, the late great Creighton Audette was never convinced by the link between a small flame with few sparks and beneficial primer behaviours. It's a hypothesis in effect, not a proven fact, or even one accepted by all.

German's tables rely heavily on shooting some very good match rifles with good .30-06 handloads with different primers, this done prone using a sling. Again, that is limited data for a single cartridge and bullet, the Lapua D46 if I remember right. This isn't to knock German's work or his excellent Blog - shame that he has stopped adding to it and hasn't been on the Accurate Shooter Forum much if at all over the last couple of years.

The OP mram10 seeks SCIENTIFIC evidence and forum member studies (his use of upper case characters) which link group size to (a) primers and (b) cases. He (or she) further qualifies that by specifying 'numerical data only'. Well he or she will almost certainly be disappointed as there are very few such studies around, most if not all were carried out by nations states' military R&D establishments (or their contractors), and even when declassified tend not to be easily found or widely disseminated. Moreover, very few of them would be of interest to forum members as they are of very limited scope and coverage. The US Army developed the PA-101 model rifle primer for the 7.62mm NATO cartridge in the early 1950s and that's pretty well what it uses today. It has no interest in comparing it to the CCI-200, F210 etc. No doubt CCI and Federal Cartridge plus others have a lot of data which cover their products' performance, and likely some which provide comparisons to competitors, but I don't see them making it public or responding to requests from private individuals either.

On the other hand, there is a vast amount of empirical knowledge and hard won experience on this forum and people can pretty convincingly show for instance that the lapua .308 Win 'Palma' match case produces smaller groups and far more consistent results in 1,000 yard shooting than once-fired ex military arsenal brass, or even new versions of the same. Either that, or many thousands of precision shooting enthusiasts in Europe and North America have wasted vast amounts of time and money in recent years and been taken in by a vast scam!
 
Laurie, terrific posts. Mram might find scientific answers playing with seating depths and case volumes and all such via quickload, all without having to shoot a lick. Seymour
 
I will refine the question in the original post to clarify. Thanks for all the HELPFUL articles and information.
 
mikecr said:
I consider the context of 'scientific evidence' as 'truthful', and it is a fact that only truths pass all tests.
Whenever someone manages to isolate truths, they typically define them with math, which is validated in prediction.
Good luck finding this in reloading.

There is no credible scientific evidence, or prediction, with regard to primer or case affects to grouping(which is an abstract in itself).
This is the answer to the question you posed.

If you really just wanted discussion (anecdotal observations) then you should ask for this.

If you don't agree with the post, please feel free to ignore it. There is some good learning going on here, regardless of your arguments of semantics. Happy thanksgiving :)
 

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