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Greenhill Formula and .223 Remington

For those familiar with the Greenhill Formula, I'm trying to confirm the ideal .223 Remington bullet length for a 1:9 twist 20" barrel AR15. The best length (L) I've found to hit a perfect 1:9 twist rate is a 0.8362" long bullet.

Using the formula, I've got a bullet diameter (D) of .224 divided by length variable L (.8362), which is then divided into 150 and multiplied by D. This gives me near-exact 1:9.

Now the questions: are there .8362 long .223 Remington bullets available? Expert advice needed.
 
I should add that what I'm really after is a set of particular grain/bullet brand/type that will most closely match .836 bullet length. I'm also concerned how BTHP might impact Greenhill's formula.
 
I'm not a fan of the Greenhill formula. It was written long ago, when bullets were round nosed, and solid lead.

I have an Excel program that I got on the internet that is "kinda" OK. And I use the RCBS calculations program that comes bundled with their Infinity program.

When using the .224 53gr V-Max, @3500 fps, both programs are equal. But when I tried the .204, 40gr V-Max at 3,800, the Excel program said all was well (@12.57) and the factory twist is 12"... but the Sierra said 11.88, and Hornady has stated that the 40gr V-Max is very marginal with the 12" twist... and that has been my experence too.

So I have come to trust the Sierra software when picking barrel twists for new rifle barrels.
 
CatShooter said:
I'm not a fan of the Greenhill formula. It was written long ago, when bullets were round nosed, and solid lead.

I have an Excel program that I got on the internet that is "kinda" OK. And I use the RCBS calculations program that comes bundled with their Infinity program.

When using the .224 53gr V-Max, @3500 fps, both programs are equal. But when I tried the .204, 40gr V-Max at 3,800, the Excel program said all was well (@12.57) and the factory twist is 12"... but the Sierra said 11.88, and Hornady has stated that the 40gr V-Max is very marginal with the 12" twist... and that has been my experence too.

So I have come to trust the Sierra software when picking barrel twists for new rifle barrels.

How did the various bullets actually shoot...without the formula?
 
Well... the .204 40ger V-Max shot very poorly (2"+).
I had bought a new XR-100 in .204 and I couldn't get it to shoot fer skit. So I sent it back to Remington, and they replaced with a new one. That one didn't shoot fer skit either. I was going to sell the gun, but called Hornady first, and they said that the 12" twist was very marginal for the 40 V-Max... it is a long bullet (much longer than the 39 BK or Nosler).

So I decided to have it rebarreled, and ordered a 10" twist for it. the rifle is done, and test loads are loaded, and it awaits a nice day when I am not working (we have not had any of those yet).

Both programs gave 12.5" for the 53gr V-max @3500, and that is right on. The new 53 V-Maxs will not stabilize in a 14" twist barrel.

I don't remember where I got the excel program, but the "good" program came built in with the Sierra "Infinity" disk - and it's very good.

Meow ;)

The Excel program came free a long time ago.
 
I'd go further than CatShooter and say Greenhill is misleading not to say downright inaccurate with regard to most modern bullets. It was designed for lead bullets in .45" and larger calibres at very low MVs by today's standards.

The formula that most ballisticians use nowadays is the Miller Twist Rule and it's available free as a little ExCel program. Just Google the three words and you'll find it elsewhere on Accurateshooter to download. You do need to know the length of the bullet though. A more advanced program is available on the Border Barrels website

http://www.border-barrels.com/barrel_twist.htm

but it requires nose, boat-tail lengths as well as overall length, plus meplat diameter.

Miller and others including Bryan Litz (Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting - a book you must get a copy of if you're interested in this sort of thing) recommend a minimum stability factor (Sg) of 1.4 in order to deal with adverse atmospheric circumstances, although the theoretical minimum Sg value needed is 1.0.

This raises the question of what is an 'ideal' rate and Sg value for any particular bullet + barrel / rifle / shooter's requirements? Traditionally bench rest competitors and British Target Rifle shooters, the latter using standard and often poor quality milspec 7.62X51mm ammunition until recently, went for the minimum or slowest twist that stabilised the bullet to the maximum range to be shot over. This was because any unnecessary extra rotational velocity would exacerbate any out of balance factors in the bullet such as the jacket being thicker on one side than the other that cause the bullet to veer off its intended trajectory. Ballisticians increasingly advise us to go for a faster twist these days than is strictly necessary as current commercial match grade bullet quality is very high indeed.

Then there is the issue of ambient temperature and air pressure. A bullet added to twist rate that is optimal at Raton NM 6,000 odd ft ASL in high summer for a particular bullet at a particular MV, may fail to stabilise it at sea level, in high-pressure anti-cyclonic conditions at -20 degrees C in mid winter Canada or Norway say. As a result, Bryan Litz lists three stability factor values for every bullet listed in his book's data pages against a range of twist rates. They are:

Best case - 1,000 ft ASL, 100% humidity, 100 deg F, 3,000 fps MV
Nominal - sea level, 50% humidity, 59 deg F, 2,800 fps MV
Worst case - sea level, 0% humidity, 0 deg F, 2,600 fps MV

If you take a 1-9" twist 0.224" cal barrel, one of the best fits is the 73gn Berger Target BT which has Sg values (Miller Twist Rule generated) of 1.62, 1.41, and 1.22 for the three cases listed above.

The 69gn Sierra MK, a bullet I would say is tailor-made for 1-9" twist 20" barrel .223s is 1.90, 1.66, and 1.43 for the three cases, in theory a bit 'over-stabilised', in practice not at all for any practical use of the cartridge.

The 73gn Berger is 0.970" long; the 69gn SMK 0.900", considerably longer than your 0.832" which would limit you to lighter non-optimal bullets BC- wise, although the definition of 'optimal' in this regard depends upon the distances you intend to shoot over obviously.

Here is how the Miller Formula says a bullet of this length weighing 60gn would look at 2,800 fps MV in 'standard' atmospheric conditions:

Don Miller's Twist Rule


Caliber 0.224 Inches
Bullet Weight 60 Grains
Bullet Length 0.832 Inches
Barrel Twist 9 Inches/turn
muzzle velocity 2800 fps
Temperature 59 degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard)
Pressure 29.92 inches of mercury (29.92 is standard)

Sg = 1.81

Sg shouldn't be less than 1.4. If Sg is greater than about 2.0, you may
gain some accuracy by going to a slower twist barrel.


Once a bullet is fully stabilised, precision depends on other factors and the Sg value obtained is of relatively minor importance. Whether a bullet performs in your barrel depends much more on its manufacturing quality, its inbuilt design factors such as bearing surface length, dimensions and form and how well they match your barrel's bore and groove dimensions and characteristics, the consistency of the powder charge burn and how well the vibrations that the bullet / charge produce suit the action's and barrel's harmonics.

If you're considering very long-range shooting, the retained velocity at the target allied to bullet design is crucial as moving into transonic velocities then through the sound barrier in to subsonic speeds can cause severe turbulence to some bullet shapes leading to yaw and instability - why the 168gn Sierra MK usually performs poorly in .308W 2,600 fps loadings at distances beyond 800yd for instance. This is not a twist rate issue, although they are not entirely separated. If you Google 'Berger OTM' you'll find a load of information on the newly released 0.308" 175gn Berger Open Tip Match 'Tactical' bullet designed for complete transonic long-range stability, but in a 1-11.25" twist rate barrel, ie to suit 2,600 fps loads in 20-26" barrel .308s.

I hope these observations help rather than hinder.

Laurie,
York, England
 
Das Capitolin said:
I'm also concerned how BTHP might impact Greenhill's formula.

Exactly, and a few other areodynamic aspects that Greenhill never even considered. While I'm familiar with the G.F. because of a long background with Trad Muzzle loaders, I've never even considered it's application to modern rifles and ballistic.

The added variables of neck tention, seating depth, ogive variance, G1 and G7 ballistics and vast arrays of powder available today that change burn rates and velocities, quickly antiquates the Greenhill math.

What modern bullet makers are using today is quite literally "rocket science".

With all respect, time is much better spent first deciding what application you want for your bullet, ie; Hunting, Varmint, Target,, then selecting weight according to needed velocity and distance.
A 1-9 twist 223 will stabilize a bullet from 55-77 with predictable reliability ;)
That leaves a HUGE selection, unfortunatly for the pocket book, yet fortunatly for a shooter wanting to experiment and have lot's of shooting time.
 
So we can agree that the Greehill Formula is a bit dated, and there's a lot that changes with advances in bullet production. So far, these suggested websites seem promising for quality ballistics information: jbmballistics.com, kwk.us, and border-barrels.com.

Laurie gave me the best infohere: http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php/topic,3766433.msg35959440.html#msg35959440

The 69gn Sierra MK, a bullet I would say is tailor-made for 1-9" twist 20" barrel .223s is 1.90, 1.66, and 1.43 for the three cases, in theory a bit 'over-stabilised', in practice not at all for any practical use of the cartridge.

The 73gn Berger is 0.970" long; the 69gn SMK 0.900", considerably longer than your 0.832" which would limit you to lighter non-optimal bullets BC- wise, although the definition of 'optimal' in this regard depends upon the distances you intend to shoot over obviously.

I plan on shooting maximum range targets with this particular AR15, past 900-1000 yards. I've already reached 800 accurately, and I've seen 1000 yards, so I know it's possible. I'll use this same information to load with the best bullet to match a particular twist, and carry out as far as possible.

I'll be starting my tests with 69gr Sierra Matchking with 25gr Hodgkin Varget and develop from there.
 
The link below was listed on the Daily Bulletin previously. It is not an all inclusive bullet length list but is a good source. JBM also has a list on their site.

http://www.shootforum.com/forum/bulletdb.html
 
Das Capitolin said:
I plan on shooting maximum range targets with this particular AR15, past 900-1000 yards. I've already reached 800 accurately, and I've seen 1000 yards, so I know it's possible. I'll use this same information to load with the best bullet to match a particular twist, and carry out as far as possible.

I'll be starting my tests with 69gr Sierra Matchking with 25gr Hodgkin Varget and develop from there.

I don't see a 69SMK getting to 1K very well - even if you could push it at 3,000fps it'd be transonic at just over 800yds. Drop at 1K would be around 471 inches/39 feet.

It's tough enough shooting 800-1,000 with a .223 using 80-90 grainers.
 

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