Going backwards!!!

[Pigdog]

so I did a ladder test found a load that shot 4 shots into 1.25inches at 300m. So today I got to zero in my new load at 100m so after wasting some ammo getting it close to zero I decide to shoot a 4 shot group as that's all the ammo I had left and the group measured 1.75inches at 100m. So I'm now extremely frustrated trying to work out how this happened. Wind was fairly light nothing unusual the only thing that I did differently was that I drew a line on my target with a builders level to see if my reticle was level. As the ground was slightly uneven (this is where I normally shoot) I decided to can't the gun so the reticle was level with the line on the target and shot it like that. There is no way that this could
Cause a gun that was capable of 1.25inch at 300m to a 1.75inch group at 100m surely.

 

[Zero333]

This happens all the time.
The fun part is to find the load that shoots good all the time at all distances, and ignore the loads that shoot bugholes half the time and make us question everything the rest of the time.

Before I consider a load good enough, It has to shoot five 5-shot groups at 300m with out any of the groups being bigger than 3/4 moa, and all groups together average 1/2moa or less.

 

[seymour fish]

so I did a ladder test found a load that shot 4 shots into 1.25inches at 300m. So today I got to zero in my new load at 100m so after wasting some ammo getting it close to zero I decide to shoot a 4 shot group as that's all the ammo I had left and the group measured 1.75inches at 100m. So I'm now extremely frustrated trying to work out how this happened. Wind was fairly light nothing unusual the only thing that I did differently was that I drew a line on my target with a builders level to see if my reticle was level. As the ground was slightly uneven (this is where I normally shoot) I decided to can't the gun so the reticle was level with the line on the target and shot it like that. There is no way that this could
Cause a gun that was capable of 1.25inch at 300m to a 1.75inch group at 100m surely.

If same can’t each shot, it ain’t the can’t. What powder increments for your 4-shot ladder node ? Cal? Did you choose the rough middle of your node for subsequent days load ? Any significant atmospheric change, especially Temp ? Follows, using temp sensitive powder ? Any mixup of components, esp primers ? Bbl fouled past a critical level with your zeroing shots ? Bbl too hot ? Elation leading to overconfident rush-job loading or shooting ? Now if your cant altered your hold on the gun in any way different from your usual, expect some degree of F-up

 

[seymour fish]

This happens all the time.
The fun part is to find the load that shoots good all the time at all distances, and ignore the loads that shoot bugholes half the time and make us question everything the rest of the time.

Before I consider a load good enough, It has to shoot five 5-shot groups at 300m with out any of the groups being bigger than 3/4 moa, and all groups together average 1/2moa or less.

Agree, yet his numbers fall way outside the expected

 

[Raythemanroe]

Savage?

 

[Pigdog]

This happens all the time.
The fun part is to find the load that shoots good all the time at all distances, and ignore the loads that shoot bugholes half the time and make us question everything the rest of the time.

Before I consider a load good enough, It has to shoot five 5-shot groups at 300m with out any of the groups being bigger than 3/4 moa, and all groups together average 1/2moa or less.

Thanks mate I thought I was
Onto something really good after the 300m group that was almost 1/3moa I was getting more and more pissed every shot yesterday maybe it was me maybe mirage maybe the can't I don't know.

If same can’t each shot, it ain’t the can’t. What powder increments for your 4-shot ladder node ? Cal? Did you choose the rough middle of your node for subsequent days load ? Any significant atmospheric change, especially Temp ? Follows, using temp sensitive powder ? Any mixup of components, esp primers ? Bbl fouled past a critical level with your zeroing shots ? Bbl too hot ? Elation leading to overconfident rush-job loading or shooting ? Now if your cant altered your hold on the gun in any way different from your usual, expect some degree of F-up

Thanks for the detailed reply I will answer your last question first in that I was trying to hold the same can't for all shots by lining up the reticle with the line I drew on the target however normally I wouldn't level the gun like that I would just shoot it naturally. In my very simple brain I thought let's Remove any error in this test by making sure the rifle is level with the target but maybe this was the problem??

The rifle is 6.5x47l it is not a savage but a mix of parts rem 700 action shillen barrel and fibreglass stock. Shooting off an atlas bipod. My original 300m ladder was with H4350 and 139 scenars from something like 38g up to 41g. I went with the middle of 2 nodes I identified which were 39.3g and 40g I shot another 300m ladder with these 2 charges 4 shots each and that's where the 40g load shot 1.25inch with just over an inch vertical and the 39.3g shot 1.6inches with 1.5inch vertical. I live in the tropics so temp is very stable maybe 1-2degrees celcius hotter than compared to when I shot that last 300m ladder. H4350 I believe is fairly temp stable.


I only own cci450 primers so
No mix up there. I couldn't tell you if the barrel was overfouled or anything like that sorry I'm not sure on that. The barrel shouldn't have been to hot I was shooting at my normal rate.

I guess I was getting more and more frustrated/dissapointed at each shot spraying like a shot gun that may also not have helped but seriously I was trying to just zero this load at 100m and after 10 shots I still can't say it's zero'd because I was aiming at a 1/4inch dot and a 1.75inch group is hardly a zero that's a shotgun on open choke!!!

I think I will just go and try another 100m zero attempt but seriously if it sprays shots like that again this thing is gunna be an expensive tomato plant stake

 

[Zero333]

What scope are you using ???
Do you have another known reliable scope you can swap to verify it wasn't the scope to blame ?

 

[Pigdog]

It's a swfa fixed 12 power scope. No I don't have any other scopes to check unfortunately. I checked today and all the scope ring screws were tight and torqued to 25inch/lbs and the cross bolt nuts were tight and 68inch/lbs checked action screws and they were tight at 45inch/lbs the only thing I didn't check was the base screws for my Darrel mount these I originally tightened to 25inch/lbs and used purple loctite to install I would have to take the scope off to test these but it didn't feel loose

 

[DirtySteve]

Any chance that you may have load to a different OAL??

 

[seymour fish]

Agree, yet his numbers fall way outside the expected

Thanks mate I thought I was
Onto something really good after the 300m group that was almost 1/3moa I was getting more and more pissed every shot yesterday maybe it was me maybe mirage maybe the can't I don't know.




Thanks for the detailed reply I will answer your last question first in that I was trying to hold the same can't for all shots by lining up the reticle with the line I drew on the target however normally I wouldn't level the gun like that I would just shoot it naturally. In my very simple brain I thought let's Remove any error in this test by making sure the rifle is level with the target but maybe this was the problem??

The rifle is 6.5x47l it is not a savage but a mix of parts rem 700 action shillen barrel and fibreglass stock. Shooting off an atlas bipod. My original 300m ladder was with H4350 and 139 scenars from something like 38g up to 41g. I went with the middle of 2 nodes I identified which were 39.3g and 40g I shot another 300m ladder with these 2 charges 4 shots each and that's where the 40g load shot 1.25inch with just over an inch vertical and the 39.3g shot 1.6inches with 1.5inch vertical. I live in the tropics so temp is very stable maybe 1-2degrees celcius hotter than compared to when I shot that last 300m ladder. H4350 I believe is fairly temp stable.


I only own cci450 primers so
No mix up there. I couldn't tell you if the barrel was overfouled or anything like that sorry I'm not sure on that. The barrel shouldn't have been to hot I was shooting at my normal rate.

I guess I was getting more and more frustrated/dissapointed at each shot spraying like a shot gun that may also not have helped but seriously I was trying to just zero this load at 100m and after 10 shots I still can't say it's zero'd because I was aiming at a 1/4inch dot and a 1.75inch group is hardly a zero that's a shotgun on open choke!!!

I think I will just go and try another 100m zero attempt but seriously if it sprays shots like that again this thing is gunna be an expensive tomato plant stake

 

[Pigdog]

Any chance that you may have load to a different OAL??

I loaded around 40 rounds and measured them at time of loading they were all the same using a Wilson seater. 10 thou off lands.

Seymour fish you quoted my reply but I can't see anything you typed under it?

 

[Raythemanroe]

If you load to the lowest ES's you could easily have been on the edge of a node.. Different elevation, humidity, temperature and like that you are bounced out of the node.. I like to ladder test and just use the chrono for notes and a reference point.. The paper will help you get to the center of a node..


Ray

 

[Tommie]

It's a swfa fixed 12 power scope

A possible culprit.

 

[Pigdog]

If you load to the lowest ES's you could easily have been on the edge of a node.. Different elevation, humidity, temperature and like that you are bounced out of the node.. I like to ladder test and just use the chrono for notes and a reference point.. The paper will help you get to the center of a node..


Ray

I'm not too sure what you mean here. I originally shot a ladder from 38 to 41g in 0.3 increments I then loaded in the middle of what I identified as nodes which ended up being 39.3 and 40g and then shot another ladder with just these 2 loads and the 40g showed the least vertical at 300m so I went with that. I don't even own a chrono I'm just loading it based on what I see in the target

 

[chkunz]

If I understand correctly you are comparing one 4 shot group at 300m with one 4 shot group at 100m? If that is the case then I have a comment but I will wait until you verify that is in fact the case.

 

[Pigdog]

THREAD UPDATE!!!

Went out today for another attempt with much better results held the rifle naturally as I normally do didn't can't it to suit the target. The 1st shot as seen in pic is my cold bore zero attempt so the 5 shot group is how it is off the cuff no sighters or foulers it measures just on 0.8 inch at 100m I'm thinking I just dial 0.1mil right as the 3 shots are just out of the circle and call it zero what do you think??

 

[Pigdog]

If I understand correctly you are comparing one 4 shot group at 300m with one 4 shot group at 100m? If that is the case then I have a comment but I will wait until you verify that is in fact the case.

Yes that is correct however as per update above much happier now

 

[chkunz]

THREAD UPDATE!!!

Went out today for another attempt with much better results held the rifle naturally as I normally do didn't can't it to suit the target. The 1st shot as seen in pic is my cold bore zero attempt so the 5 shot group is how it is off the cuff no sighters or foulers it measures just on 0.8 inch at 100m I'm thinking I just dial 0.1mil right as the 3 shots are just out of the circle and call it zero what do you think??

Great, problem solved. From my experience shooting prone, natural point of aim is critical. Anytime the crosshairs do not naturally line up with my target using my natural point of aim and I push with muscle even a slight amount to get that perfect sight picture I get a poor shot. That is what probably happened to you, you pushed slightly with muscle to get the crosshair lined up and it shows on the target. The fundamentals will always be with up, sight alignment, sight picture, trigger control, breath control, follow thru and a bone supported position with a perfect natural point of aim.