So I’m putting together this old WWII era Italian Carbine back together. As I’ve said before, I’m doing this with the intention of using it to learn reloading. I’m saving up to buy equipment and I was wondering if anyone here has any experience with this round or any advice for me. Thanks!
Getting ready to reload 6.5x52
- Thread starter Carcanobrat
- Start date
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
Some food for thought…
If you are truly a beginner in reloading and attempting this on your own, think about picking a less obscure starting point and find a mentor if at all possible. Get some more “standardized“ experience and then venture into the rare topics.
I only say this to be helpful and certainly not to discourage you from that Italian Carbine. You can look at basic reloading and get lots of opinions on the odds of success as a solo rookie, and then slide over to more rare or advanced topics and get a whole spectrum of different advice and opinions with a trend that admits the difficulty.
The Parravicini and Mannlicher designs bring their own subtlety and rarity, so you find yourself venturing into expert territory where knowledge isn’t common and components can be rare.
In my opinion, you have a better chance of learning this with a more common rig like a 308, 6.5 CM, 223, etc. for the reasons that the data and components are very common and inexpensive. The Italian chambers, bores, and riflings were a mix of evolutions that started with features in the late 1800s and improved over time. Gain twist, long bearing areas, and other features that are picky like the brass availability and bullet styles, all point to a topic that requires some expertise and background to be efficient. That background is easier when it is cheaper and guided by a live instructor.
Not to say don’t do this, just to encourage some thoughts towards a mentor and less difficult and expensive starting point.
Good Luck and enjoy the journey.
If you are truly a beginner in reloading and attempting this on your own, think about picking a less obscure starting point and find a mentor if at all possible. Get some more “standardized“ experience and then venture into the rare topics.
I only say this to be helpful and certainly not to discourage you from that Italian Carbine. You can look at basic reloading and get lots of opinions on the odds of success as a solo rookie, and then slide over to more rare or advanced topics and get a whole spectrum of different advice and opinions with a trend that admits the difficulty.
The Parravicini and Mannlicher designs bring their own subtlety and rarity, so you find yourself venturing into expert territory where knowledge isn’t common and components can be rare.
In my opinion, you have a better chance of learning this with a more common rig like a 308, 6.5 CM, 223, etc. for the reasons that the data and components are very common and inexpensive. The Italian chambers, bores, and riflings were a mix of evolutions that started with features in the late 1800s and improved over time. Gain twist, long bearing areas, and other features that are picky like the brass availability and bullet styles, all point to a topic that requires some expertise and background to be efficient. That background is easier when it is cheaper and guided by a live instructor.
Not to say don’t do this, just to encourage some thoughts towards a mentor and less difficult and expensive starting point.
Good Luck and enjoy the journey.
6.5 Carcano is not a particularly difficult cartridge to load. If your intent is to have shootable ammo, it’s pretty straightforward. If you’re wanting to wring some performance out of it, you should absolutely learn on some more common cartridges.
Bore diameters vary on Carcano. Most non-surplus factory ammo seems to be using .264” diameter bullets, but usually they need something like a .267-.268”. I say usually, because some have smaller bore sizes, due to wartime manufacturing shortcuts. So to really see what your rifle will do accuracy-wise, you need to be able to slug your bore to get its size, but that’s not typically beginner level stuff. You won’t run afoul using .264 bullets, but you may find your accuracy lacking.
Also, if your barrel has been cut, you will have a challenge getting it to shoot well. Most models of Carcano had gain-twist barrels. So if it was cut, you may have problems finding a bullet that will shoot in it.
Bore diameters vary on Carcano. Most non-surplus factory ammo seems to be using .264” diameter bullets, but usually they need something like a .267-.268”. I say usually, because some have smaller bore sizes, due to wartime manufacturing shortcuts. So to really see what your rifle will do accuracy-wise, you need to be able to slug your bore to get its size, but that’s not typically beginner level stuff. You won’t run afoul using .264 bullets, but you may find your accuracy lacking.
Also, if your barrel has been cut, you will have a challenge getting it to shoot well. Most models of Carcano had gain-twist barrels. So if it was cut, you may have problems finding a bullet that will shoot in it.
I've had very good luck with .270 diameter cast bullets in various Carcano and vetterli rifles at 1300 fps or so.
The barrel was not cut. I’ve owned several carcano rifles as well as a Vetterli Vitali rifle. I’ve studied the Carcanos from conception to field use to a reasonable degree, not that I consider myself a scholar on the subject. Just an enthusiast. As for reloading I’ve done a lot of case cleaning and polishing, a lot of de-priming, and running cases through a full length sizing die. So I don’t know much, but I’ve gotten a toe or two wet. I’ve watched a lot, and I mean a lot of reloading on you tube. I have a competent gunsmith I’m going to have slug the bore. More what I’m trying to figure out is; is there a particular loading I should start with? Where can I find the original round nose bullets in the correct diameter? Can I take 6.8 bullets and run them through a resizing die if I can’t find other components? How do I start working up a load of my primary concern is not blowing up the rifle? Do the Lee dies really suck for this caliber, or is that just Koba49’s experience?
And I chose this gun to reload with cause it was a cheap sub $100.00 gun that has no real historical value anymore cause even when I got it, it was beat to hell and would have taken far more effort and cost to restore than it was worth. If it goes kablooey I’m not going to cry. At this point, I just want to learn the basics of reloading. I’m not trying to be accurate with it right now, and I’ll probably stick with the .264 bullets for a while. I just want to load something and see it come out of the barrel onto paper and the goal is simple: don’t eff up the rifle in that process. Once I feel comfortable with that I’ll move on to accuracy. But right now I just want to get indoctrinated in the basic process.
That’s an interesting concept. I’d be interested to know the diameter of your bore of this is through a single rifle, or if you’ve applied this doctrine to several.
myself and my friend have shoot the NOE 6.5 .270.diameter cast bullet in 5 different 6.5x52 rifles and the throat of all of the rifles are quite large and chamber just fine.
My standard bullet casting for old milsurp rifles has been use the largest bullet that will chamber. Pressures are low compared to jacketed at the charges I use and will not have issues.
An example is a 7.5x53 Swiss martini I own.it has a .307 groove and .298 bore.the Throat is giant and the best success is a a bullet breech seated with a .328 base and .316 nose .Or a stop ring bullet with a .328 ring loaded in fixed ammo.
So while slugging the bore can be an important number, a chamber cast or lead upset slug in the throat is needed information for the proper bullet fit.
For the record I was a match director for a few years in the cast bullet association military rifle matches . And pretty much what I have said above is what the most successful people were (and still are)
doing.
notice the bullet is tapered.
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Thanks for the break down. That makes a lot of sense. I’m going to stick with the .264 for a bit, just because I’m not looking for accuracy right away. The way I figure it, in the spirit of not blowing the rifle up by accident, I’ll stick with the .264 for now so that if I do something stupid some of the pressure has an extra place to go around the bullet. But I’m really looking forward to getting to use some of this info once I’m confident in the basic reloading process and can start playing with bullet diameters and seeing what kind of accuracy I can wring out of it. TBH, eventually I would like to put a whole new 16” barrel on it with a modern twist rate, break, custom scope mount with a long eye relief scope, Ching sling, and fix the bubba’d bolt handle, and load it with 115 gr bullets… but that’s a project that may never come to fruition and is a discussion for a later date.
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RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
..."So while slugging the bore can be an important number, a chamber cast or lead upset slug in the throat is needed information for the proper bullet fit."....
+1 on this advice.
I would say you would want both even for just casual use, but those two procedures and steps are not considered beginner material.
With the chamber cast, it is much easier to learn this on a loose barrel, but not impossible on an assembled rig by someone who is experienced. Ask your gunsmith about a chamber casting when they slug your barrel and have them inspect the whole rig for safety. Ask them to check the firing pin and spring condition too.
As a beginner, you should have no trouble getting ammo to chamber and function safely once your smith gives the rig a good inspection and helps you pick a bullet that will at least fit.
Starting load data is easy to find, but the bullets may or may not match your chamber/bore. The data will give you an idea of the powders and charges to look at.
https://press.hornady.com/assets/site/hornady/files/obsolete-data/6-5-x-52mm-carcano.pdf
+1 on this advice.
I would say you would want both even for just casual use, but those two procedures and steps are not considered beginner material.
With the chamber cast, it is much easier to learn this on a loose barrel, but not impossible on an assembled rig by someone who is experienced. Ask your gunsmith about a chamber casting when they slug your barrel and have them inspect the whole rig for safety. Ask them to check the firing pin and spring condition too.
As a beginner, you should have no trouble getting ammo to chamber and function safely once your smith gives the rig a good inspection and helps you pick a bullet that will at least fit.
Starting load data is easy to find, but the bullets may or may not match your chamber/bore. The data will give you an idea of the powders and charges to look at.
https://press.hornady.com/assets/site/hornady/files/obsolete-data/6-5-x-52mm-carcano.pdf
This is one of my larger concerns. How do I know how to adjust my powder load if I have to change the bullet I am using? If I take a .270 and swage it down to .266 but it was the same grain weight would it behave the same? If the grain weights are different, how do I compensate for the amount of powder?
There is not much danger of any "bad moments" as long as you start your reloads at the lowest recommended charge and work your way up. The 6.5 Carcano is a pretty low pressure round and being a military rifle, your chamber will be very generous as the rifles were made to function in the dirt and grime of war. Cast bullets shot at modest velocities are probably going to be the most accurate anyway, so no need to push your reloads into the dangerous realm.
mayday1648
Silver $$ Contributor
Sir With all due respect I would encourage you to start your reloading education with a modern manufacture domestic brand bolt action rifle in a common caliber. This will greatly reduce variables associated with your choice of guns to begin with. A $100 dollar gun cost is easily dwarfed by the cost of one ER visit. A known strong modern action is very helpful in reducing injury from even small mistakes. I would also encourage a experienced reloader to be present to observe your first efforts as I at least learned far more as an " apprentice" than purely solo. With all respect. Rich
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
Step 1. Clearance from a competent credentialed gunsmith.
Step 2. They will give you a suggested starting bullet size and type. That is what you should get.
Step 2A. Either research load manuals, or visit with a Carcano expert to find published start loads for the above bullet.
Step 3. Using the published starting charge, test the first shots with just a few samples but not before learning to recognize the signs of trouble before you load more or proceed.
That's the thing about giving yourself a chance to learn the ropes using "standards" like a 308 or 223 which eliminates many of the hardships for learning. With one of those, there would be no question about the bullet fit or starting charge, or the outcome. Plus, it would give you some practice with components and how they behave with increasing pressure.
Don't be discouraged, but do play it safe and find a mentor if at all possible.
ETA: to be clear, the question on knowing how to change the load based on a bullet change in this context is a far riskier answer, so I am intentionally not saying how this happens since it is not a thing to be answered on the internet with a beginner. In a regular context, the advice would be to stick with published data, but since the published data for these rifles already comes with warnings there would be no point to repeating them. Give yourself a chance to learn loading and internal ballistics before you venture into this territory.
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You might find the Hornady RN bullets, if you have a decent shop that stocks oddball components. They’re .267, 160gr. It seems like they do a run of them every few years. Though I’m not sure where that is given how things have been the last couple years.
If you do find some of those, Hornady provides VERY SPECIFIC data for their use. I didn’t have the rest of the components they call for to try them yet. They also have done a .264 160gr RN bullet that is similar in profile. That one is a bit less specific in how your supposed to load it.
Barring that, Prvi Partizan makes .268 bullets-though I’ve only seen lighter ones around here.
As for data, if you’re using .264 bullets, just pick starting loads, as most data will be compatible with them. But be aware that if you’re using larger diameter bullets, a lot of the data is intended for .264 bullets. As such, I would highly recommend that if you’re going to start in reloading with this caliber, you use .264 bullets. Light Cast Bullet loads are probably an even better option, but you’ll have to find some bullets, and then find suitable data for them. I seem to remember there being data for 6.5 Carcano in the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual, but don’t quote me on that.
Just as an afterthought, what kind of brass do you have? A lot of the older ammo was berdan primed, and not easily reloadable. It’s pretty easy to tell. Shine a light down in the case. If you see 2 holes(one on either side), it’s berdan, and not really usable. If you see one hole in the center, it’s boxer primed and good to go. Just be aware that berdan primed brass has a dimple in the center usually that can look like a center hole.
There’s some jacketed data here:….https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center?rdc=true&type=54
Regardless, stick to starting loads until you have some experience. With components like powder and primers being hard to get, suggesting one load or another probably won’t be much help, because you might not be able to find any of the components.
You might find the Hornady RN bullets, if you have a decent shop that stocks oddball components. They’re .267, 160gr. It seems like they do a run of them every few years. Though I’m not sure where that is given how things have been the last couple years.
If you do find some of those, Hornady provides VERY SPECIFIC data for their use. I didn’t have the rest of the components they call for to try them yet. They also have done a .264 160gr RN bullet that is similar in profile. That one is a bit less specific in how your supposed to load it.
Barring that, Prvi Partizan makes .268 bullets-though I’ve only seen lighter ones around here.
As for data, if you’re using .264 bullets, just pick starting loads, as most data will be compatible with them. But be aware that if you’re using larger diameter bullets, a lot of the data is intended for .264 bullets. As such, I would highly recommend that if you’re going to start in reloading with this caliber, you use .264 bullets. Light Cast Bullet loads are probably an even better option, but you’ll have to find some bullets, and then find suitable data for them. I seem to remember there being data for 6.5 Carcano in the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual, but don’t quote me on that.
Just as an afterthought, what kind of brass do you have? A lot of the older ammo was berdan primed, and not easily reloadable. It’s pretty easy to tell. Shine a light down in the case. If you see 2 holes(one on either side), it’s berdan, and not really usable. If you see one hole in the center, it’s boxer primed and good to go.
There’s some jacketed data here:….https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center?rdc=true&type=54
Thanks for the info. I have 6 factory loaded rounds of PPU. That’s all I got, lmao. I’m starting from nill and not.
I will definitely check that out
I guess maybe I should start with something different. It’s just I don’t have much left in the way of rifles and I got 0 pistols anymore. I was really into milsurps and milsurp sporters, and that’s really all I have left. All my conventional guns were lost either to Free Willy in the Divorce or generating funds to start my life over after the fact. I got a Carcano, a Mosin, and SKS, and an old Winchester boyscout 22. The WinChester and the SKS are the only currently functioning guns. And while 7.62x39 is more common than the other rifle rounds, it’s still not prolific in reloading like .308 and .223. And I honestly don’t know where I’m going to come up with the money to get all new equipment, components, and a whole new rig…unless some ones got a cheap bolt gun in 308 or 30.06 (and when I say cheap I mean like $100.00 + shipping) I don’t know how else to proceed with starting up reloading, outside of utilizing what I already have in the process. And please don’t think I’m asking someone to sell me a gun cheaper than it’s worth. I was just trying to make a point by saying that. Yeah, I am having a hard time right now, but I ain’t one to benefit from my misfortune by breaking the backs of others. This is my mess I’ll crawl out of it or die in it lol. I’m just looking for friends, info and a place to share both my successes and failures here.
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Was up till 2am looking at .223 and .308 rifles.
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