I would like node data for a 308 Winchester using Lapua Palma brass 450 CCI primers and Varget powder and Berger 208 Long Range Hybrid Bullets using a 29 1/2" barrel. Have brass necked to .331 for use in a .334 neck was looking for a desired velocity for 600 yard competition using a heavy varmint Bartlein barrel hope i haven't forgot anything that could be helpful! Thank you in advance
FTR Load Data For Midrange 308 Winchester
- Thread starter James Hickey
- Start date
Somewhere between 43.5-44.7 of Varget. Your milage may vary, work up to the load.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Somewhere close to 2600 fps velocity should be your target. Use SRP brass, as pressure will likely be at or near SAAMI MAX for .308 Win. As previously noted, seating depth (i.e. usable case volume) and therefore COAL will be critical as to the amount of Varget needed. The 208s are longer than the 200.20Xs and require greater freebore to seat optimally.
10XSHOOTER
Gold $$ Contributor
Get rid of the SRP brass and use large primers. To much powder for small rifle primers
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
How "tight" a load shoots depends largely on the load development. The 208 Hybrid is more than capable of producing tiny groups if tuned properly. Yes, there is a bit more recoil with the 208s as compared to 185 Juggernauts, but it's readily manageable with proper gun handling. In contrast, the difference in predicted windage between those two bullet choices is substantial, even at only 600 yd (see attached JBM outputs below), with the 208 Hybrid the winner by just over half an MOA less wind deflection. My real-world experience with both bullets suggest that the JBM predictions are not too far from the actual performance of each. Half an MOA less wind deflection at 600 yd is HUGE.
I know several shooters that have chosen to use the 185 Juggernauts because they feel the 185s are very forgiving to tune, and are perhaps a bit easier to shoot with good precision as compared to the 200.20Xs or 208s. In fact, I saw a number of outstanding scores posted in MR F-TR matches last season by shooters using 185s. Nonetheless, they have to be that much better with their wind calls when conditions are challenging. Quite a number of F-TR shooters switched over from Juggernauts to the 200.20X bullet after its introduction a few years back. I would even say the 200.20X bullet is probably the most commonly-used bullet in F-TR at the moment. Recoil and gun handling with the 208s are fairly similar to a typical 200.20X load. Each shooter will choose their components to some extent based on what makes them feel most comfortable. My intent here is simply to point out the obvious advantages of running high BC 200+ gr bullets. Yes, there are caveats associated with using heavier bullets, but the differences between 185s, 200s, and 208s in terms of load development and gun handling are not huge, even if they're not zero.
Further, running F-TR loads with heavy bullets that commonly end up in the 60K+ psi pressure range can kill the primer pockets of LRP brass in less than 5 firings. SRP brass is the better way to go for F-TR competition with a .308 Win, unless short brass life (i.e. $$$) isn't an issue. I recently used the 208s over Varget with SRP brass in a match that started out with temps in the mid 30s. There were no issues whatsoever with ignition or the use of SRPs under those conditions, which would fall toward the low end of temps most commonly seen at a typical F-Class match. If one wishes to shoot when temps are in the mid 20s (or less), such as in a hunting application, then LRP brass is the better choice. However, it is not very common to experience such temps in the average F-Class match and the improved longevity of SRP brass makes it the better choice for F-TR competition.
I know several shooters that have chosen to use the 185 Juggernauts because they feel the 185s are very forgiving to tune, and are perhaps a bit easier to shoot with good precision as compared to the 200.20Xs or 208s. In fact, I saw a number of outstanding scores posted in MR F-TR matches last season by shooters using 185s. Nonetheless, they have to be that much better with their wind calls when conditions are challenging. Quite a number of F-TR shooters switched over from Juggernauts to the 200.20X bullet after its introduction a few years back. I would even say the 200.20X bullet is probably the most commonly-used bullet in F-TR at the moment. Recoil and gun handling with the 208s are fairly similar to a typical 200.20X load. Each shooter will choose their components to some extent based on what makes them feel most comfortable. My intent here is simply to point out the obvious advantages of running high BC 200+ gr bullets. Yes, there are caveats associated with using heavier bullets, but the differences between 185s, 200s, and 208s in terms of load development and gun handling are not huge, even if they're not zero.
Further, running F-TR loads with heavy bullets that commonly end up in the 60K+ psi pressure range can kill the primer pockets of LRP brass in less than 5 firings. SRP brass is the better way to go for F-TR competition with a .308 Win, unless short brass life (i.e. $$$) isn't an issue. I recently used the 208s over Varget with SRP brass in a match that started out with temps in the mid 30s. There were no issues whatsoever with ignition or the use of SRPs under those conditions, which would fall toward the low end of temps most commonly seen at a typical F-Class match. If one wishes to shoot when temps are in the mid 20s (or less), such as in a hunting application, then LRP brass is the better choice. However, it is not very common to experience such temps in the average F-Class match and the improved longevity of SRP brass makes it the better choice for F-TR competition.
Attachments
I will see if i can unpack your stmt as we don't seem to be on the same page
I said tighter tight is too subjective.
I referred to 208+ excluding the 200 class bullet.
last point i shoot 185's 100 fps faster than your JBM chart.
That aside you have made some excellent points...
- On paper the 208 have it all over the 185's as you pointed out .4 or .5moa is a huge difference in wind calls.
- A 10 is still a 10 even if the shot is in the corner
Looking more granular, my reasons saying the 208 are not ideal and selecting 185 for mid range has to do with
Group size (my testing)
185's are in the high .2s
200's are in the low .3s
215's are in the mid to high .3s
Taking the difference between the 185 and 215 (my samples) I am .100 smaller with with the 185's, extended that over the course of a relay 15 to 20 shots, shooting the heavier bullet requires you to manage elevation better and be diligent with your groups centre.
Truer wind calls:
As you pointed out 185's are perhaps easier to manage than 208's. Easier to shoot systems give confidence in calling shots and extend to wind calls. Tighter shooting rifle are able to call wind better when shots are landing 9 - 3 o'clock waterline. Systems that have greater vertical have more variables. Was it the shooter, rifle or wind which resulted in the bullet high and left / right. You have to add to the wind call, a decision about the rifles vertical. Deciding to do nothing about the vertical shot is still a decision
Wind conditions:
.4 moa is allot when the wind is up and the relay is not an equipment race. However .31 or .35moa per MPH is not when the relay is light with 1 to 3 MPH full value winds.
A 1moa 10ring requires a 3.22 mph wind to push the 208 from one side to the other compared to 2.85mph for the 185. a 2.0 mph wind change is visible to shooters
Our targets:
The obvious, we shoot on targets that have circular concentric rings. Our largest wind allowance is between the 9 and 3 o'clock position deviate from the waterline and our margin of error shrinks.
Cheers
Trevor
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XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Pretty close to 100% of the guys shooting FTR have been running small primers since about 2013. Maybe a 6mm In something with capacity similar to a 308 case like a 243 or 6SLR running powders slower than 4350 need LRPs, but for the loads of Varget, N150, or other powders of similar burn rate the success of SRPs has been established for a decade Or more.
As noted in the post above, the only time SRPs become an issue in the 308 is when the temps drop into the 30s. (thats the only time I’ve experienced it) At that point you can begin to se the occasional hang fire.
2.9890 COAL
In my experience (.308 mainly) GRT seems to more accurately reflect velocity and pressure when large rifle primers are used. With small primers I find the predicted pressure and speeds are on the high side (typically I need up to 0.5 grains more of a particular powder when using small v large primers). This is one reason why actual data is key to securing more reliable/useful outputs.
Running your load details in GRT and assuming a case (water) capacity of 56.0 grains predicts ~ 2490 fps using 39.24 gr Varget at ~55900 psi. The next higher node, 41.22 gr N4.5 takes you over pressure at 64789 psi, 2585 fps. 39.24 gr may therefore be a good starting point for further testing and work up cautiously looking for pressure signs.
Running your load details in GRT and assuming a case (water) capacity of 56.0 grains predicts ~ 2490 fps using 39.24 gr Varget at ~55900 psi. The next higher node, 41.22 gr N4.5 takes you over pressure at 64789 psi, 2585 fps. 39.24 gr may therefore be a good starting point for further testing and work up cautiously looking for pressure signs.
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XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
There are not a lot of people shooting the 208s in F-TR competition… yet…
I don’t think it’s just one reason. There are a number of reasons, one is that at reasonable loads it’s not really much, or any, of a ballistic improvement over the 200.20x. That combined with the setup for the 20x is pretty much pat for most people, and that reloading supplies have been scarce and expensive the result is not too many people have been willing to go to the trouble of trying out a new setup that really doesn’t result in tangible gains.
I don’t think it’s just one reason. There are a number of reasons, one is that at reasonable loads it’s not really much, or any, of a ballistic improvement over the 200.20x. That combined with the setup for the 20x is pretty much pat for most people, and that reloading supplies have been scarce and expensive the result is not too many people have been willing to go to the trouble of trying out a new setup that really doesn’t result in tangible gains.
Liven The Dream
Gold $$ Contributor
Have a Friend into 208's ???? 8,9$1000 yards.
tests at 400.
Some times great days some times goes Home ? One time the the Rifle went Booom ?
tests at 400.
Some times great days some times goes Home ? One time the the Rifle went Booom ?
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
That's pretty short for the 208s. It would even be considered a little short for the 200.20X bullet. With a freebore optimized for the 208s, my COAL with loaded rounds [seated optimally] is around 3.175". You might consider having the rifle freebore extended if you intend to focus solely on using the 208s. Alternatively, the 185 Hybrid might be a better bullet choice for the rifle as it is currently throated. As has already been mentioned, the 185 Juggernaut would be another choice similar in dimensions to the 185 Hybrid. Trying to load the 208s, or even 200.20Xs in a relatively short chamber will mean higher-than-necessary pressure at a given velocity, and may make it difficult or even impossible to realistically hit a higher velocity node/window. If you're dead set on using the 208s, I'd lengthen the freebore substantially to seat them optimally. Otherwise, a different bullet choice may be the better solution. Although .308 Win SRP brass will take substantially more pressure than LRP, I don't know what kind of velocity you will be able to obtain at reasonable operating pressure with the 208s seated pretty deep in the case. If pressure becomes limiting factor with the 208s at a COAL of 2.989", the question will then become whether the benefit of the 208's high BC might be largely lost if you are limited to using a slower node. I'm a definitely proponent of using the highest BC bullet that can be loaded optimally and that shoots with acceptable precision. But the rifle needs to be chambered appropriately for the bullet of choice to get the most out of it. The caveat is that once the chamber has been throated long, using a bullet that is much shorter than the 208s likely means jumping it a relatively long distance, which may or may not yield the desired precision.
When I first set up the two rifles I'm currently using to shoot the 208s, my intention was to 1) make the freebore as long as possible to accommodate longer bullets such as the 208s, 215s, or even 220s, while 2) leaving approximately half a caliber of bullet shank seated in the neck with the 200.20X bullet. Ultimately, I went with 0.220" freebore in the reamer design, which was the best compromise I could come up with to achieve both of those goals. As it turned out, the 0.220" freebore was pretty much perfect for the 208s ( I haven't tried 215s or 220s in either of these rifles at this point). However, the 200.20Xs don't seem to shoot as well in my hands from these rifles with just under half a caliber of shank in the neck as they do with a more optimal freebore setup (0.170" to 0.180"), so I quickly focused solely on the 208s to get them working and haven't looked back. I have other rifles set up for the 200.20Xs, so I didn't really mind.
You have at least a couple fairly straightforward choices; i.e. throating out the chamber or selecting a shorter bullet that is better suited to the current chamber. Of those, the 2nd is the "easy button", but going that route obviously means giving up the extremely high BC of the 208s.
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D-4297
Gold $$ Contributor
Ned "aced it" as usual . I do shoot both the 200.20x and 208 , and my Free Bore is .195 . It works for the 208 . but just barely . It does limit me on velocity somewhat , but it is workable for 600 on those windier days , over a 185 Jugg . My normal round for decent weather and lower wind conditions . As Ned has mentioned ; the 200 and 185 Hybrid should also be considered .Though the Hybrid is a little more sensitive to seating depth , once you find the sweet spot , it is a solid hammer .
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