ftr caliber
- Thread starter cliffe
- Start date
Almost right, but not for HP shooters.
.... F-T/R was started in Canada for fullbore shooters who were having a hard time seeing with iron sights (like old shooters). In fullbore only 308s or 223 were allowed. Under USA NRA rules there is no bullet weight restriction but under USA fullbore rules there is a 156 grain for the 308s and a 92 grain for the 223s bullet weight restriction.
.... F-T/R was started in Canada for fullbore shooters who were having a hard time seeing with iron sights (like old shooters). In fullbore only 308s or 223 were allowed. Under USA NRA rules there is no bullet weight restriction but under USA fullbore rules there is a 156 grain for the 308s and a 92 grain for the 223s bullet weight restriction.
If you don't want to shoot F/TR classification with its restrictions on catridges .308/.223, then shoot what you want under F/O. Its analagous to shooting Palma/Fullbore vs. NRA long range match rifle for those of us who rather shoot with our eyeballs and a sling. Thus, by rule, the external ballistics in F/TR or Palma are going to be fairly similar, and the winner is the better rifleman (notice that I did not say shooter) of the day.cliffe said:
so the f tr is for guys shooting palma/ fullbore to install a scope and shoot in a different match?
i understand any caliber goes in f/o.
not interested in a 22lb. rifle and seb style rest, but don't want a 223 or 308. shooting off a bipod with a heavy barreled rifle and scope would seem like a class that more people would join as there is alot of people making tactical style rifles. just don't think to many 223 and 308. cliffe
i understand any caliber goes in f/o.
not interested in a 22lb. rifle and seb style rest, but don't want a 223 or 308. shooting off a bipod with a heavy barreled rifle and scope would seem like a class that more people would join as there is alot of people making tactical style rifles. just don't think to many 223 and 308. cliffe
Cliffe, the .223 and .308 in F/TR are a military heritage. Main calibers in the Canada, Britain, U.S., Australia Armies. The U.S NRA, British NRA, Aussie NRA and Canadian DCRA evolved from military orginizations using Army ranges.
The F in F Class stands for "Farky" Farquharson, a Dominion of Canada Rifle Assocation (DCRA) shooter from the Province of British Columbia. His arms and eyes could no longer take Palma shooting, a sad fate for shooters from every country.
In the late 1980`s, the DCRA was experimenting with any sight, sling, any caliber much the same as U.S. NRA High Power Long Range. I actually shot in this demonstartion match at the Canadian Nationals in 1989 with a heavy barrel Ruger 77 .25-06.
This led to Farky suggesting in the mid 1990`s any sight with any front rest, rear bag, max 156 gr in .308. The class is called F(F), a Canada only class. International F/TR allows bipod only and any bullet weight, a situation that the DCRA must eventually resolve with the number of U.S. shooters coming to our Nationals in Ottawa.
The DCRA was (is) hidebound in Palma shooting with the .308, the military NATO cartridge. So the cartridge used in F(F) had to be the .308 with a max weight of 156 gr in case a 155 SMK actually weighed 155.2 gr.
The Canadian Army adopted the dreadful .223 cartridge in the 1980`s. The M16 clone, the C7, is made under licence from Colt in southern Ontario for the Canadian Army. So eventually the .223 was accepted by the DCRA as a Palma cartridge and hence an F(F) and F/TR cartridge.
There was a demonstration .223 match in 1989 at the Canadian Nationals (it still had not been accepted by the DCRA as a legit caliber) which I shot with a custom bolt gun with a McGowen barrel. My shooting partner was from the U.S. He had just come from Camp Perry.
So now the .223 is accepted by the DCRA as a legitimate Palma, F(F), F/TR carrtridge because it is the main Army cartridge.
I have no idea what tortuous route the .223 went through in the U.S. to be accepted as a legal NRA competition round. Probably something to do with Viet Nam and Iraq.
F(F) is slowly fading out in Canada, being combined with F/TR at the Nationals, any bullet weight , any front rest. Only two Canadians shot F(F) in the Nationals two weeks ago, both shooting .223. The U.S. Team Savage were not happy about the any front rest, an unfair advantage in their eyes.
So F Class continues to evolve.
The F in F Class stands for "Farky" Farquharson, a Dominion of Canada Rifle Assocation (DCRA) shooter from the Province of British Columbia. His arms and eyes could no longer take Palma shooting, a sad fate for shooters from every country.
In the late 1980`s, the DCRA was experimenting with any sight, sling, any caliber much the same as U.S. NRA High Power Long Range. I actually shot in this demonstartion match at the Canadian Nationals in 1989 with a heavy barrel Ruger 77 .25-06.
This led to Farky suggesting in the mid 1990`s any sight with any front rest, rear bag, max 156 gr in .308. The class is called F(F), a Canada only class. International F/TR allows bipod only and any bullet weight, a situation that the DCRA must eventually resolve with the number of U.S. shooters coming to our Nationals in Ottawa.
The DCRA was (is) hidebound in Palma shooting with the .308, the military NATO cartridge. So the cartridge used in F(F) had to be the .308 with a max weight of 156 gr in case a 155 SMK actually weighed 155.2 gr.
The Canadian Army adopted the dreadful .223 cartridge in the 1980`s. The M16 clone, the C7, is made under licence from Colt in southern Ontario for the Canadian Army. So eventually the .223 was accepted by the DCRA as a Palma cartridge and hence an F(F) and F/TR cartridge.
There was a demonstration .223 match in 1989 at the Canadian Nationals (it still had not been accepted by the DCRA as a legit caliber) which I shot with a custom bolt gun with a McGowen barrel. My shooting partner was from the U.S. He had just come from Camp Perry.
So now the .223 is accepted by the DCRA as a legitimate Palma, F(F), F/TR carrtridge because it is the main Army cartridge.
I have no idea what tortuous route the .223 went through in the U.S. to be accepted as a legal NRA competition round. Probably something to do with Viet Nam and Iraq.
F(F) is slowly fading out in Canada, being combined with F/TR at the Nationals, any bullet weight , any front rest. Only two Canadians shot F(F) in the Nationals two weeks ago, both shooting .223. The U.S. Team Savage were not happy about the any front rest, an unfair advantage in their eyes.
So F Class continues to evolve.
Cliffe,
You can shoot any of the calibers OK'd for F-Open using a bipod in the F-Open class. In fact a few of the better shooters in F-Open do so. Danny Biggs from Team Berger does this a good bit. It does not seem to affect his scores at all. The only caveat is the rifle with bipod must weigh less than 22 lbs under USA and ICFRA (International)rules.
Larry Bartholome
You can shoot any of the calibers OK'd for F-Open using a bipod in the F-Open class. In fact a few of the better shooters in F-Open do so. Danny Biggs from Team Berger does this a good bit. It does not seem to affect his scores at all. The only caveat is the rifle with bipod must weigh less than 22 lbs under USA and ICFRA (International)rules.
Larry Bartholome
No problem with a bipod in F(Open). I was in a 3-way shootoff for the 1000 yard title in the Ontario Provincials two years ago using a 6mm Ackley Improved and a bipod. Lost by one point because I mis-read the wind on a shot, no fault of the bipod.
The winner used a pedestal. The other chap used a bipod. He was one point behind me. We shot in a dull rain just before sunset and third place said he couldn`t see the target properly.
The main advantage I see with a bipod is you can just flop down and shoot. Pedestal shooters spend 5 minutes pounding their 3-points with a mallet and another 5 minutes leveling their rear bag. Time they should be spending watching the wind flags and mirage.
Sunday the third place chap in the shoot-off went on to win the 2009 F Class Ontario Championship using a 6.5-284 and a bipod.
The winner used a pedestal. The other chap used a bipod. He was one point behind me. We shot in a dull rain just before sunset and third place said he couldn`t see the target properly.
The main advantage I see with a bipod is you can just flop down and shoot. Pedestal shooters spend 5 minutes pounding their 3-points with a mallet and another 5 minutes leveling their rear bag. Time they should be spending watching the wind flags and mirage.
Sunday the third place chap in the shoot-off went on to win the 2009 F Class Ontario Championship using a 6.5-284 and a bipod.
memilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
cliffe said:
Once upon a time, that was the general idea. Not too many people moving from Palma/Fullbore to F/TR although there are a few. It's effectively a standardized class where a decent factory gun can be competitive.
I think you might be wrong there... whats the one caliber that almost every company that makes any 'varmint' or 'tactical' rifle catalogs: .308 Winchester. Most of the hi speed / lo drag practical/tactical aka 'tacticool' guns in calibers like 6.5x47, 6 CM, 7 WSM are ones that were built to beat the .308s in those matches. Absolutely nothing stopping them from fielding those guns in F/Open - other than egos.
Memilanuk,
There were two separate events at the Canadian Fullbore Shoot three weeks ago. The actual 10 day Canadian Championships and a one day America Cup on the eleventh day. The America Cup was a separate special event which was not part of the Grand Agg in the Canadian Championships. I made no mention of the America Cup in my original posting, only the 10 day main event.
The U.S. F/TR shooters who competed as individuals in the 10 day main event referred to themselves as members of Team Savage. I was there and shot with them on every relay. They were not happy that F(F) and F/TR had been combined as one class in the 10 day main event which allowed the use of any front rest. They thought this was an unfair advantage for the two F(F) shooters which was the point of my previous posting. Since the U.S. makes the rules for the America Cup, the two F(F) shooters would not be allowed on the Canadian team.
There were no F(O) U.S. Team shooters present during the 10 day main event. They showed up at the very end and shot some warm up events that were not part of the Grand Agg.
The official U.S. F Class Team made up of the previously mentioned F/TR and the F(O) late arrivals shot against the South African and Canadian Teams for the America Cup on the eleventh day.
There were two separate events at the Canadian Fullbore Shoot three weeks ago. The actual 10 day Canadian Championships and a one day America Cup on the eleventh day. The America Cup was a separate special event which was not part of the Grand Agg in the Canadian Championships. I made no mention of the America Cup in my original posting, only the 10 day main event.
The U.S. F/TR shooters who competed as individuals in the 10 day main event referred to themselves as members of Team Savage. I was there and shot with them on every relay. They were not happy that F(F) and F/TR had been combined as one class in the 10 day main event which allowed the use of any front rest. They thought this was an unfair advantage for the two F(F) shooters which was the point of my previous posting. Since the U.S. makes the rules for the America Cup, the two F(F) shooters would not be allowed on the Canadian team.
There were no F(O) U.S. Team shooters present during the 10 day main event. They showed up at the very end and shot some warm up events that were not part of the Grand Agg.
The official U.S. F Class Team made up of the previously mentioned F/TR and the F(O) late arrivals shot against the South African and Canadian Teams for the America Cup on the eleventh day.
memilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
I'm aware of that... and I'm also aware that out of the four members of Team Savage: I stayed home from the get-go. John and Stan turned back when John fell ill on the road. So there was only one 'Team Savage' shooter there, Darrell Buell. 'Team Savage' was not at the event in any official capacity. USA F/TR was, and yes the F/Open crowd was a little late to the party. Unless Jeff Rorer & Dale Carpenter suddenly started fielding Savage rifles when I wasn't looking...
1000yardstare said:
1000yardstare ?,
This is incorrect. Of the Team USA F-T/R guys present for the full Canadian Agg, I was the only one there from Team Savage. As at least one of the other guys was from a similar sponsored team (Team Sinclair) when he is not shooting for the USA, I doubt he was claiming to be from Team Savage.
The issues I had with the combining of F(F) and F-T/R (the South African F-Class Captain had the same complaint) were purely as Captain of the United States F-Class Team (nothing at all to do with Team Savage). The issue Jannie and I had was less about the performance advantage of shooting off a front rest (which can be debated endlessly), and more to do with when the change was instituted. When Jannie and I committed Teams to Ottawa (roughly 10-11 months ago), there was no talk of combining the classes. In fact, see the following quote sent out roughly October/November last year by Match organizers:
"DCRA has adopted ICFRA rules for a three-year trial, and 2010 is year#2 of our trial, so our national championships and also the America Match will be shot under what are essentially ICFRA rules "
So when South Africa and the USA show up for a match to find that the conditions have been somewhat altered in the few months prior to the match (April, May?), there is likely to be some head scratching.
I have been shooting in Western Canada (BC) for some years. I am a big fan of how the BCRA, and specifically Robert Pitcairn have embraced the ICFRA rules, including standardized target sizes. This is less out of any great love for ICFRA per se, than the obvious advantages of having one standard for F-Class around the shooting world. Basically for the International Competitor, there is not a "moving target" of rules from one country to the next, making traveling to Canada, UK, Ireland, South Africa, etc. (furthering the sport) that much easier.
Best Regards,
Darrell Buell
Captain, Team USA F-T/R
Darrel. Great hearing from you again. This thread seems to have become sidetracked a bit into talking about individuals and teams when the originator of the thread wanted clarification on calibers and rests for F/TR.
The only reason I mentioned U.S shooters very briefly at the end of my first posting was to emphasise the point that a type of F Class called F(F) which exists only in Canada is slowly disappearing but in the process of disappearing is causing some problems because they can use a front pedestal.
The two competitors at Ottawa still shooting F(F) are a past President and a past Treasurer of the DCRA. I can remember you, I and one of these individuals in a conversation waiting for our relay where the individual said he would only stop using his front pedestal when he was lowered into the ground with the pedestal clutched to his chest inside the coffin. So politics intervened at the Canadian Nationals this year and we had that mish-mash of rules which I admit was very unfair to International shooters who were unaware of the decisions within the DCRA.
As for British Columbia being strictly ICFRA, the U.S. has its Mason/Dixon line. Canada has the Ontario/Manitoba border. Western Canadians take great pride in isolating themselves from the East and Ottawa in particular. So it is no surprise that it is bipod-only in B.C. which is the way it should be at Ottawa next August. But Ottawa is the Nation`s capitol and the centre of political intrigue so we will see.
Bill
The only reason I mentioned U.S shooters very briefly at the end of my first posting was to emphasise the point that a type of F Class called F(F) which exists only in Canada is slowly disappearing but in the process of disappearing is causing some problems because they can use a front pedestal.
The two competitors at Ottawa still shooting F(F) are a past President and a past Treasurer of the DCRA. I can remember you, I and one of these individuals in a conversation waiting for our relay where the individual said he would only stop using his front pedestal when he was lowered into the ground with the pedestal clutched to his chest inside the coffin. So politics intervened at the Canadian Nationals this year and we had that mish-mash of rules which I admit was very unfair to International shooters who were unaware of the decisions within the DCRA.
As for British Columbia being strictly ICFRA, the U.S. has its Mason/Dixon line. Canada has the Ontario/Manitoba border. Western Canadians take great pride in isolating themselves from the East and Ottawa in particular. So it is no surprise that it is bipod-only in B.C. which is the way it should be at Ottawa next August. But Ottawa is the Nation`s capitol and the centre of political intrigue so we will see.
Bill
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