FTR 200-215grains shooting technique question

[Ilya S.]

Hello guys.

Im new here but have some expirience in longrange shooting.
Now I use 168 hybrids at 2860fps with 0.050 jump from my factory(action and barrel) `26 bbl Remington 700PSS (HS Precision PST025 stock, jewell, custom ftr bipods, Dr.Bag rear bag) It shot extremely well, 0.3 moa vertical up to 900y and 0.5moa at 1000y(3-9 o'clock wind), but if I have more than 3ml/h wind speed or 1 hour wind direction error at 900/1000y - Im loossing my 10's (5's in EU).
So I decided to rebarell my rifle for 200-215grain bergers in 32inch 10twist heavy palma contour.
With 168grns hyb. at 2860fps and 185grns JUG. at 2770fps, I have good results with hard cheek and shoulder pressure and free righthand(Im righthand shooter, righthand stayng on grip, but no pressure, just one finger trigger work). Now rifle full weight(with factory `26 barrel, scope and bipod) is 14.5lbs, with new barrel it will be 16.8 lbs.

So, Is it harder to shoot 200-215 grain bullets (2700-2750fps) than 185's or hight speed 168's ?
Is it need to correct prone position or cheek/grip pressure ?
May be some technique recommends and shooting tips especially for heavy bullets ?
May be more than 6.6 lbs barrel need (heavy varmint or straight taper countor) ?

Best.
Iliya S.

 

[Canadian bushman]

So, Is it harder to shoot 200-215 grain bullets (2700-2750fps) than 185's or hight speed 168's ?
Is it need to correct prone position or cheek/grip pressure ?
May be some technique recommends and shooting tips especially for heavy bullets ?
May be more than 6.6 lbs barrel need (heavy varmint or straight taper countor) ?

Best.
Iliya S.

In my opinion, i think the 200+ class of 30 cal bullets are harder to shoot.

I shoot the 215's from a set up very similar to what you are planning, and if i did it over i personally would look at the 200-20x.

Its been a while since ive shot lighter bullets, but i now make a cautious effort to get directly behind the rifle and keep it pressed into my shoulder a little harder than i did with the 185's. The first 5 or 10 shots arent so bad, the last 10 is where i fall apart. It seems like a little different cheek weld, or shoulder pressure and verticle starts taking over.

If i were really serious about FTR i would try to be just a few oz from making weight.

 

[paulT]

Ran the 215g Hybrids couple of seasons back for FTr and found the way they bucked the wind awesome however cheek weld and consistency was paramount to help keep verticals tight and try reducing flyers also running them at 2,700+ fps velocities a no no with the faster burning powders which would destroy brass fast the 215g running at 2.700+ velocities induce a Large amount of torque on the rifle specially if barrel is over 30inches i would recommend Trying the standard 200g and new 200.20x Hybrids along with a few 215g hybrids to compare before Throating barrel.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

I've not been able (or even attempted) to run the 215's to 2700+. Like paulT, I've found that they are very sensitive to position, but if you get it right, they are deadly.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I recently started shooting the 200.20X bullet and am running them at ~2670 fps from a 30" barrel in an F-TR rifle that weighs just a tick under 18 lb. I was surprised to find that I did not notice any real difference in felt recoil as compared to my 185 Juggernaut load (~2725 fps) or my 185 Hybrid load (~2770 fps).

Several years ago before I began reloading, I shot the Applied Ballistics 175 OTM Tactical load (~2750 fps). When I first switched to 185 Juggernauts (~2775 fps), I did notice that they required more recoil management than the 175s. I shoot F-TR using an LRA bipod, which is basically an enlarged version of a Harris-type bipod, and a large rear bean bag. The LRA has a much wider footprint than a Harris/Atlas bipod. After switching to handloaded 185s, I found I needed to use slightly more loading on the bipod and extra care in gun handling or I would see more vertical dispersion. Unlike most of today's F-TR shooter that use a ski-type bipod and eared rear bag, with a fairly light hold, I generally like to hold the rifle in the grip of death. It may not be the preferred way to do it, but it has worked pretty well for me. After switching to the 185s from the commercial 175 load, I found I had to simply do everything just a wee bit more, or harder, if that makes sense.

As I mentioned, I expected a similar result when I started using the 200.20Xs last year. Surprisingly, if you gave me my 185 Hybrid handloads and 200 handloads and didn't tell me which were which, I'm not sure I could tell the difference. As I said, I hold the rifle pretty tightly and load the bipod hard, which may be why I'm not seeing much difference. However, if you estimate kinetic energy from the velocities of the two bullets (185 Hybrid = ~2770 fps; 200.20X = 2670 fps) using 1/2 MV*2, there really is not much difference predicted in recoil between the two loads. One thing that is likely to be noticeably different as compared to your setup is the weight of the rifles (~18 lb vs 14.5 lb). Even with your new barrel your setup will be about 1.2 lb lighter than my F-TR rifles. That is enough weight to make a difference in felt recoil. The bottom line is that you will need to try the heavier bullets in your setup to determine exactly how much more recoil (if any) you notice, and if necessary, change your position, grip, etc., to accommodate it.

FWIW - with a 32" barrel and commonly used powders such as Varget or H4895, realistic MVs for the 200s are going to be somewhere in the 2650-2700 fps range, and around 2550-2600 fps for the 215s. Pushing the 200s at much over 2700 fps, and the 215s at more than 2600 fps or so while maintaining reasonable operating pressure is going to be difficult. I have never loaded the 215s, but I know a couple very talented F-TR shooters that have. Both have gone back to shooting either Berger 200 Hybrids, or 210 LRBTs. As I understand it, their primary reasons were unexplained vertical when using the 215s. Although there are other possibilities, one potential cause for "unexplained" vertical is recoil management.

Clearly there are F-TR shooters that have mastered the 215s and have done very, very well shooting them. Shooting 215 or 230 gr 30 cal bullets in a .308 F-TR rifle is asking a lot in terms of rifle weight, recoil, and torque. The recent introduction of the 200.20X bullet has somewhat closed the gap between the original 200 Hybrid and the 215 Hybrid performance. Although a little closer than the original 200 Hybrid, the BC of the 200.20X is still significantly lower than the 215 (.328 vs .354 G7). However, you can push the 200.20X faster and make up part of the difference. I make note of this simply because if you find the 215s generate too much recoil, you won't lose a huge amount of performance by going down in weight to the 200.20X. Food for thought, anyhow.

 

[gsg5pk]

But hard to find 200.20x available right now

 

[Ned Ludd]

Don't worry, they'll make more . Too cold (for me, anyhow) to be out shooting them in Nebraska right now anyhow.

 

[Joe R]

Hello guys.

So, Is it harder to shoot 200-215 grain bullets (2700-2750fps) than 185's or hight speed 168's ?
Is it need to correct prone position or cheek/grip pressure ?
May be some technique recommends and shooting tips especially for heavy bullets ?
May be more than 6.6 lbs barrel need (heavy varmint or straight taper countor) ?

Best.
Iliya S.

I agree it is harder to shoot the 200s and 215s. I don't know anyone that is shooting the 215s at 2700+.The closest I know of is around 2680, but you need something around an 9 twist or better to do that, especially in the winter time. The torque you'll get will be an eye opener. My bipod hops over 3 targets on recoil. I know of a couple of people that use the 215s at around 2550 and do pretty well.

The 200s are more manageable around 2700 fps and I like them a lot. If I were just starting now I would go with the 215s (easier to get and cheaper) and work my way up from 2475 fps. At that speed they have the same wind resistance as the 200s going at 2700 fps. Run the numbers, they speak for themselves.

Joe

 

[Ilya S.]

10x for answers guys. So, if I have no errors in recoil managment, triggering and prone pos. - the total combo of rifle(barrel) weight and projectile energy is key.

 

[Joe R]

10x for answers guys. So, if I have no errors in recoil managment, triggering and prone pos. - the total combo of rifle(barrel) weight and projectile energy is key.

That's one way to think of it, but remember that's at one point in time.

Keep in mind that velocity is a depreciating asset like a car, it loses value quickly over time. BC is forever, it retains value much better like land. Hence my recommendation of 215s at lower velocity. YMMV.

Regards,

Joe

 

[rap36case]

I am interested in building a 308win to shoot the 215 Berger hybrid. I found an article on AccurateShooter and on Pierce Engineering about Bryan Litz winning with this bullet in 1000 yard competition. So far, I think he was using a 30" Bartlien barrel, 1to9 twist, long action, 43gn Varget, BR4 primers in Lapua brass.
I am not interested in winning national competitions or 30" barrels. I am very interested in building a rifle where these reloads will work in the magazine and carry in field. I don't want to over-pressure the reloads or wear out the barrel prematurely.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

I agree it is harder to shoot the 200s and 215s. I don't know anyone that is shooting the 215s at 2700+.The closest I know of is around 2680, but you need something around an 9 twist or better to do that, especially in the winter time. The torque you'll get will be an eye opener. My bipod hops over 3 targets on recoil. I know of a couple of people that use the 215s at around 2550 and do pretty well.

The 208 ELDs will do fine from a 1 in 10" twist. We measured the BCs with radar at muzzle velocities down to 2400 fps from a 1 in 11.25" twist earlier this month. They were exactly as advertised by Hornady. In a 1 in 10" twist, we've radared the BCs to be just as Hornady claims all the way down to 1500 fps muzzle velocity.

Accuracy is excellent. Lots of torque and muzzle hop

 

[memilanuk]

I am interested in building a 308win to shoot the 215 Berger hybrid.

I am very interested in building a rifle where these reloads will work in the magazine and carry in field.

Probably not gonna happen, due to the design of the bullet - very long. I haven't tried it, but I'd bet that part of the ogive is below the case mouth by the time you get it down to 2.800" OAL to feed from a standard mag. Even if it isn't, enough of the bullet is going to be jammed down below the neck-shoulder junction of the case that it will begin to seriously impinge upon the case capacity, limiting the ballistics to where its not really worth it. This bullet and similar were pretty much intended for either use in a long-throated barrel on a single-shot action (.308 Win) or a long action / magnum that has can better accommodate the bullet length.

You're certainly welcome to try... but it'd probably be best to start a separate thread on the topic.

 

[dkhunt14]

I am interested in building a 308win to shoot the 215 Berger hybrid. I found an article on AccurateShooter and on Pierce Engineering about Bryan Litz winning with this bullet in 1000 yard competition. So far, I think he was using a 30" Bartlien barrel, 1to9 twist, long action, 43gn Varget, BR4 primers in Lapua brass.
I am not interested in winning national competitions or 30" barrels. I am very interested in building a rifle where these reloads will work in the magazine and carry in field. I don't want to over-pressure the reloads or wear out the barrel prematurely.

You could do it in a long action with the right freebore. Matt

 

[Canadian bushman]

I run the 215's in a L/A 308. My COAL is around 3.1" and it feeds out of the box great. I can also eject a loaded round.

It definitely drops game significantly better than any other bullet ive tried in the 308.

At 2500 my 1k wind drift is .65 moa/mph full value. At 2600 it drops to .6.

 

[rap36case]

I run the 215's in a L/A 308. My COAL is around 3.1" and it feeds out of the box great. I can also eject a loaded round.

It definitely drops game significantly better than any other bullet ive tried in the 308.

At 2500 my 1k wind drift is .65 moa/mph full value. At 2600 it drops to .6.

Thank you very much for the input! Do you have a long action on that 308win?

 

[Canadian bushman]

Thank you very much for the input! Do you have a long action on that 308win?

Yes. A stiller tac 300.

 

[mysticplayer]

My solution... #17/#7HV or 17A contour barrel 30" long, MPOD mounted to a very long forend, long "tail" buttstock to increase the wheelbase, light weight stock.

Adjust stock geometry to track as needed. Gone from 200 to 230's..... settled on 210's for now.

Tracks very nicely...

Jerry

 

[Berger.Fan222]

I am interested in building a 308win to shoot the 215 Berger hybrid. I found an article on AccurateShooter and on Pierce Engineering about Bryan Litz winning with this bullet in 1000 yard competition. So far, I think he was using a 30" Bartlien barrel, 1to9 twist, long action, 43gn Varget, BR4 primers in Lapua brass.
I am not interested in winning national competitions or 30" barrels. I am very interested in building a rifle where these reloads will work in the magazine and carry in field. I don't want to over-pressure the reloads or wear out the barrel prematurely.

Build it on a long action and throat it to load the bullets long. You're looking at COALs close to a 30-06.

 

[Ilya S.]

here I can see a very nice 4shot groups (post #5) :
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/berger-308-200-gr-hybrids-varget.3909976/
can someone explain John Ingram's technique and show pics of his rig. May be some 100-300yds targets and tech tips of Jeff Rorer and Derek Rodgers ?