Though I am still working on it, I've had difficulty keeping the BR rifle/scope on target after discharge due to recoil. I did't think this would happen with the 6.5x47 rifle but it is. I've got teflon tape on the stock for the front and the rear rests which I think (but am not sure) are both Condura (looks like black woven material) surfaces, and this helps a lot, however, still getting recoil lift and maybe some torque to the extent I have to re-aim before shooting each next round. Havn't found any videos to instruct. I think I might have too much filler in the front and rear bags. Your helpful thoughts would be appreciated.
Front rest and rear bag technique to keep on target for 6.5X47L
- Thread starter Cassidy
- Start date
OK, LH Smith, here more info. It's a BR rifle that weighs about 15.8 lbs. The stock is a Shehane wood stock model ST-1000. Barrel is a Krieger #17, 28.5 inches. I don't know what you mean by weight system, or HG, SG, HV or LV. Front rest is an iron Eagle. Back bag is a Protector model 3/4" tracker from Bill Shehane. I shoot from a bench with stock pinned against the front stop. Most recently have shot with stock butt barely touching my shoulder to allow a small degree of free recoil (though will be trying firm control next time on the range). What other info do you need.
First off, I am a short range BR guy, LR BR is not my thing....but I believe you meant to say you have a Bald Eagle Rest....and also use a LR stock with no angle on the bottom which should allow for great tracking.
Did you experiment with the stock resting at different locations on the rest? i.e. with a 1/2" overhang from the front bag up to maybe 2/1/2 ". Likewise trying different rear bag locations i.e. the buttplate 1" behind bag ears, up to 2-1/2 ". I would not fill the bag EARS of either bag with heavy sand, use play sand sifted coarse or Black Diamond blasting media (TSC) so it will not pack hard. When you set the rest up, do you sight down the front and rear bag and line up with the target? A good way to check the front rest alignment is to set the tip of the rifles forend even with the rest top, and see it they are parallel. Sometimes a long wooden dowel helps get perfect alignment. Is the readjustment required only in the vertical plane? I am pretty sure most LR setups require some degree of readjustment in vertical. What are you treating the cordura bags with? I had a bag grabbing recently that was from the use of bag wax ( bag was loaned out) and a lot of brushing and denatured alcohol solved that problem. I just brush my bags regularly and keep my stock waxed ...even if they have tape on them.
Other than that, rifle balance might be the problem...in short range the gun should balance at a point within 1" of the barrel/ receiver junction...and weights / or cutting weight down ( i.e bbl. shortening, removing scope knobs, lighter scope/mounts) are used to remedy any imbalance.
In Long Range BR : HG= heavy gun LG = light gun (up to 17# I believe)
In Short Range BR: HV = Heavy varmint ( 13.5 # max.) LV = Light Varmint ( 10.5 # max.)
Lastly, it could be the load. When I get a tune that flat out shoots, it usually has a sharper recoil, but it also begins tracking very well.
Did you experiment with the stock resting at different locations on the rest? i.e. with a 1/2" overhang from the front bag up to maybe 2/1/2 ". Likewise trying different rear bag locations i.e. the buttplate 1" behind bag ears, up to 2-1/2 ". I would not fill the bag EARS of either bag with heavy sand, use play sand sifted coarse or Black Diamond blasting media (TSC) so it will not pack hard. When you set the rest up, do you sight down the front and rear bag and line up with the target? A good way to check the front rest alignment is to set the tip of the rifles forend even with the rest top, and see it they are parallel. Sometimes a long wooden dowel helps get perfect alignment. Is the readjustment required only in the vertical plane? I am pretty sure most LR setups require some degree of readjustment in vertical. What are you treating the cordura bags with? I had a bag grabbing recently that was from the use of bag wax ( bag was loaned out) and a lot of brushing and denatured alcohol solved that problem. I just brush my bags regularly and keep my stock waxed ...even if they have tape on them.
Other than that, rifle balance might be the problem...in short range the gun should balance at a point within 1" of the barrel/ receiver junction...and weights / or cutting weight down ( i.e bbl. shortening, removing scope knobs, lighter scope/mounts) are used to remedy any imbalance.
In Long Range BR : HG= heavy gun LG = light gun (up to 17# I believe)
In Short Range BR: HV = Heavy varmint ( 13.5 # max.) LV = Light Varmint ( 10.5 # max.)
Lastly, it could be the load. When I get a tune that flat out shoots, it usually has a sharper recoil, but it also begins tracking very well.
Whatever force is apply to the base of the bullet is applied in the opposite direction and it always moves things around a bit.
Hanging all over a rifle makes things worse. Try Shooting Free Recoil. I shoot the 30BR that way and I know others who shoot the 30X44, 30X46, and 30X47 that way too.
Here's a good video on using just the tip of your index finger once things are all lined up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKswldMjS2E
Hanging all over a rifle makes things worse. Try Shooting Free Recoil. I shoot the 30BR that way and I know others who shoot the 30X44, 30X46, and 30X47 that way too.
Here's a good video on using just the tip of your index finger once things are all lined up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKswldMjS2E
Tim Singleton
Gold $$ Contributor
I shoot short range as well. Even in a fairly mild recoil 6ppc when the load isn't right it jumps and bucks in the bags. When the tune is right it tracks straight
Don't know how much of that applies here
Don't know how much of that applies here
LHSmith, you're right, the front rest is a bald Eagle rest (iron and heavy, with u-shaped front 2 legs), and the straight stock bottom for tracking. Both the front rest and rear bag end at about 1 inch from the fore-stock and stock butt, respectively (following Tony Boyer's book). I think the bags are too tight (full) so will take your suggestion to loosen the ears and bag bases by removing some filler and placing sand in the ears. Checking alignment of target of the front and rear bags with a wooden dowel is a good idea - I havn't tried it yet - but think this alignment might change as soon as I adjust the front and/or rear bags to put the reticle on target. Both the front and rear bags are clean since bought - no wax and no silicone spray have been applied. I've relied on the teflon tape on the stock. The overall rifle balances art 3.5 inches in front of where the barrel enters the action; maybe this is part of the balance problem - not sure how to resolve this. Still working on finding optimal load, so when this is done maybe tracking will improve. I'm really careful with the trigger pull (very light Jewel) so don't think this is the problem, and shoot with the stock lightly in my shoulder to allow nearly but not totally free recoil. There are multiple opinions about whether to let it free-side or control it; will have to experiment more.
Pretty sure your set-up is grossly muzzle heavy. Until you can determine how best to correct this ( best solution is to get weight ( lead, tungsten ($)) in the buttstock) , shoot the gun positioned in the bags so it places as much weight to the back end as possible.
Yes, in most rest/bag set-ups there is a minute amount of angular change as one changes targets or even holding off. You are trying to eliminate gross misalignment (i.e. where the rear bag lines up with the target frame or two to either side of your bench).
I also concur in trying to master the "free recoil"method. It is more difficult to master the muscle memory required to shoot "pinning" or "holding" to shoot consistently well.
Yes, in most rest/bag set-ups there is a minute amount of angular change as one changes targets or even holding off. You are trying to eliminate gross misalignment (i.e. where the rear bag lines up with the target frame or two to either side of your bench).
I also concur in trying to master the "free recoil"method. It is more difficult to master the muscle memory required to shoot "pinning" or "holding" to shoot consistently well.
LHSmith - I added lead fishing weights into a plastic sandwich bag tied to the butt plate on the back of the stock to determine how much weight is required to balance the rifle at 1 inch forward of the barrel-action junction. The total was 1 pound 6.8 oz - a lot. Will figure out a way to add this weight to the end of the stock. Not sure there is enough room behind the butt plate to machine out space to place this much lead. Might need to make or have made another butt plate that can accommodate this amount of lead. Don't really want to trim length off the barrel.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
While some top short range benchrest shooters shoot free, others shoulder and make contact. Some pin the rifle to the point where they lift the rear leg of the rest and then back off some till it touches. If what you are doing does not work, try other things, and do not discard them until you have given them a fair trial. Each technique has to be learned, and there may be more to it than was first thought. On the weight distribution thing, it is not so much where the balance point is, but whether there is enough weight on the rear bag. If you pick up the butt of a rifle that is butt light, and drop it an inch or into the bag ears, it sounds differently than one that has say three pounds on the rear bag. I have a package scale that measures to .1 oz and has a 55# capacity.
I have set it up under my rear bag, pushed the tare button to rezero the scale, and then elevated my front rest so that the rifle sits level. Knowing the weight of the rifle, and reading the weight on the rear bag, I can calculate what is on the front bag, and build a chart of the effects of different front and rear bag positions. What one learns from this is that in order to put the most weight on the rear bag, the front bag needs to be as far forward as it can be, and have the rifle still shoot, and that sliding the rear bag forward increases the effect slightly.
I have set it up under my rear bag, pushed the tare button to rezero the scale, and then elevated my front rest so that the rifle sits level. Knowing the weight of the rifle, and reading the weight on the rear bag, I can calculate what is on the front bag, and build a chart of the effects of different front and rear bag positions. What one learns from this is that in order to put the most weight on the rear bag, the front bag needs to be as far forward as it can be, and have the rifle still shoot, and that sliding the rear bag forward increases the effect slightly.
Boyd, thanks for the helpful info. When using the package scale under the rear bag to read the weight there and to calculate the weight on the front bag, when building your chart of the effects of these different front and rear weights and bag positions, are the effects you are speaking of (the end result you are trying to optimize) the ability to stay on target after recoil, or group size, or both, and/or something else. To use this approach, it sounds like I will need the ability to add or subtract weight (incremental lead weights) to/from the butt of the stock (or elsewhere on the stock) which sounds like a great idea to me if I can modify my stock butt to do so (will call Bill Shehane tomorrow to get this feedback on how to (or if I should) do this to his fine Tracker stock). On the shoulder contact matter, I will need to experiment quite a bit more. Though normally I shoot with light shoulder contact, once I tried tight shoulder control for several rounds and it worked well. Once I get these other matters fixed will work on trying the various the shouldering techniques - one variable at a time to the extent doable. I don't think I can let this rifle free recoil, but maybe I can once the balance matter is under control. One reason I like BR shooting is having to deal with all the multiple variables - still working through them.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
One time I saw a fellow drill the butt of a stock, dropping the drill press table down near the floor, It seems to me that if you clamped a screw eye in the chuck, and hung a plumb bob, you could come up with a way to center the forend, side to side on that mark. and that if you made some kind of padded wood V block that could be secured to the lowered table, that you could be pretty sure that a hole drilled in the butt, would not come out of the side. From there I think that you can use your imagination to design a weight system that would allow you to securely mount different amounts of weight as near to the comb line as you can manage, without undue risk of disaster. If one hole won't hold enough (calculate) then two should get the job done. I can shoot small 2's holding my bench stocked 6PPC like some kind of heavy kicking magnum, as long as I follow the rules, and do it consistently. I am constantly amazed at the lengths that people go to because they are not aware that this will work. In the guns of the week section on this site, there is a report on a family that all shoot 1,000 yards, and who have done well in competition. They have found that they get their best results with two hands on the rifle, and when conditions are steady (rare here) I have shot some of the smallest groups ever that way. Needless to say, if one has a hold on the rifle, or even has it heavily pinned between shoulder and forend stop, tracking is much less of an issue.
I talked with Bill Shahane today about how to add weight to the end of his ST-1000 Tracker stock butt (my rifle discussed above). He said to drill a 1" diameter hole (start drilling as low on the butt end as I can without ending up drilling through the side of the stock) and place enough lead in the 1" hole to balance the rifle. So now, since we need 1 pound 6.8 oz of weight (which is 1.425 lbs) on the end of the butt to balance the rifle, the question is how long a piece of 1" cylinder of lead will provide this weight, meaning how deep should I drill the 1" hole to get this 1 pound 6.8oz lead weight once the 1" lead cylinder is placed into the 1"diametr hole. I thought some of you might enjoy conjuring up high school geometry to figure this out. See if I screwed up the following calculation (some of you physics types are going to have more to say). The specific gravity of lead is 707.9 lbs/ft3, so the volume of lead needed to get 1.425 pounds is: 1.425 lbs divided by 707.9 lbs/ft3 = 0.0020 ft3 of lead. So I need 0.0029 cubic feet of lead to get 1.425 lbs of lead. Next is to determine the length of a 1" diameter lead cylinder to get 1.425 lbs. Unless the web steered me wrong, the equation to figure out the volume of a cylinder is pi times radius2 times the height of the cylinder. This means that the height of the cylinder is equal to the volume of the cylinder divided by (pi times radius2); this is 0.0020ft3 divided by (3.1416 times 0.0467 ft2); the 0.0477 is the 0.5 inch cylinder radius stated in feet. The result is 0.2919ft, which is 3.503 inches. If this is correct I need to drill the 1" diameter hole slightly more than 3.5 inches deep to get 1.425 pounds of lead into the butt of the rifle. See if I screwed up.
Raythemanroe
Bullet Whisperer
This is probably one of the key parts to shooting well (tracking good) other then a well tuned rifle.. I like to set my rest with a good wack with a dead blow on my corners, don't laugh it really helps.. I first line my rifle, bag and rest up then eye how it tracks by moving back and forth.. I don't forget my non slip drawer material under the rear bag and work my stock in the rear bag so not to settle when shooting..Remember when setting up to give the bag ears enough room from the palm swell area so it doesn't disturb the bag.. When setting up the rest allow for some adjustments to be made..
Ray
Ray
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Ray,
Setting rest points with a dead blow hammer damages the bench, which is OK if whoever owns the bench is good with that, but I would definitely check before doing so. Lately I have been seeing a lot of competition shooters using some version of super feet, and someone also told me that the person that runs the local short range matches has told all the competitors that it they pound them in, they are gone. Having built about 42 concrete benches, I am unapologetically opinionated on the subject. I have months of my life invested in range building, and I like to see them taken proper care of.
Boyd
Setting rest points with a dead blow hammer damages the bench, which is OK if whoever owns the bench is good with that, but I would definitely check before doing so. Lately I have been seeing a lot of competition shooters using some version of super feet, and someone also told me that the person that runs the local short range matches has told all the competitors that it they pound them in, they are gone. Having built about 42 concrete benches, I am unapologetically opinionated on the subject. I have months of my life invested in range building, and I like to see them taken proper care of.
Boyd
Raythemanroe
Bullet Whisperer
May be the case, but I was just following the lead at the club.. Sure it isn't an excuse but maybe things are different where you are referring.. I'm not suggesting anyone ignore club rules but our club has wood over concrete and by the looks "super feet " wouldn't cut it..
Ray
Ray
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
I figured that, but brought it up just in case someone gets the idea to do it on a smooth, hard to repair concrete top. Looking around, bench and range builders seem to be in short supply, and benches that are not designed with replaceable tops, need to be taken care of.
Raythemanroe
Bullet Whisperer
Ya, I'm not suggesting that what so ever
Ray
Ray
Boyd - I've got a friend with some ranch land nearby (Austin outskirts area) that wants to convert it to a training range. He hasn't got the capital to do that yet, but he said I can shoot there whenever I want. This would allow me to tune my rifle without the "ceasefire" interuptions I experience at the public range I go to. However, to use my friends ranch for tuning, I would need to set up a benchrest to fire on. Any suggestions how I might build one.
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