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Freebore for F-TR

As I ask Dave at PTG, he recommend unturned nk to go with .342nk .168 FB 1-30 for F-TR single shot.

My prefer projectiles were

175 SMK
175 LRBT
185 LRBT
185 Hybrid


But when I read Rifle Journal of Germen Salazar he would recommend 0.114" FB for projectiles 175 -190 gr.

Because the longer throat will not suitable with 175 gr.

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2011/07/cartridges-308-heavy-bullet-conundrum.html?m=1


So, what freebore should I use to chamber a new barrel for my F-TR?
 
My prefer projectiles were

175 SMK
175 LRBT
185 LRBT
185 Hybrid

What distance(s) are you planning to shoot over? The 175gn SMK is not a great long-range choice and risks losing you the occasional point even at 500/600 in a missed wind change.

The 175gn Berger LRBT is a lovely bullet to shoot and a great performer, but is very similar characteristics wise to the 185gn LRBT which has a significantly better BC and is a proven long-range F/TR performer. Many of those who choose the 175gn version are sling-shooters who find the 185 gives just a little too much recoil in their form of shooting and 13-14lb rifle weight, much less of an issue in F/TR. All three bullets will perform well in 1-13" twist barrels, although 1-12" is the ideal rate for the 185gn LRPBT. Many Palma / Fullbore shooters have had superb results from rifles that are in theory optimised for 155s with the two Bergers.

The 185gn Hybrid needs a significantly faster rifling twist rate (1-11"), and a significantly longer throat than the other three. It offers the best G7 BC, but if you set the rifle up specifically for this bullet, you'll end up with one that has been optimised for heavier bullets. The 1-11" twist rate and freebore for this bullet suit the 208gn A-Max and 210gn models from Sierra and Berger, and are only marginal for the 200gn Hybrid.

Why do you want to shoot 175 to 185s is the question you need to ask yourself. The most recent generation of 155s and the 168gn Berger Hybrid are not a great deal behind in actual wind performance and a lot of people find they can shoot tighter groups and get better long-range elevation control with them. You'd only likely gain with the better 185s if you're concentrating on 800-1,000 yards comps and expect to shoot on ranges with large wind switches. That's my take anyway, and I've been a fan of the 185 LRBT in my time and got very good 1,000 yd results from it as well. Others think differently and both approaches have their pros and cons. (Equally, there is a fair body of F/TR shooters who use the 210s nearly all the time and are now happily playing with the new 215 and 230gn Hybrids which really do offer benefits in a tricky wind, but have their downsides too.)

Ryan's advice to choose one bullet as your optimum and get a reamer to suit it at the COAL you'd load it to is very sound, and I'd certainly add my support to that.
 
Firstly, I'm a fan of heavier projectiles.

My barrel was 1:10 tw.


For 175 SMK, I only use for practise at 400 - 600 yards. But during competition I always run 175 LRBT @ 2,650 fps. for 600 yards and 185 LRBT @ 2,590 fps. at 800 yards.

The reason that I don't like 155 gr projectiles because of high velocities over 3,000 fps will make your barrel life shorter.
 
The reason that I don't like 155 gr projectiles because of high velocities over 3,000 fps will make your barrel life shorter.

Ah, now that's an interesting view, one well worth looking at in greater depth.

Barrel life killers are:

1.) absolute maximum pressure / flame temperature loads - a mixture of powder choice and actual charge weight used. A double-base powder load running at 60,000 psi in 308W will kill a barrel's accuracy potential much quicker than a single-base powder load running at 55,000 psi. Less certain, but likely is that if both powder types are producing the same 60,000 psi PMax, the D-B load will wear the barrel out faster than the S-B type, but there are all sorts of potentially mitigating factors at play here.

2.) rapid fire causing serious barrel heating in the leade / throat area resulting in rapid erosion and firecracking of the surfaces. US style string shooting therefore wears barrels out a lot quicker than the paired shooting we do in the UK and I believe Canadians use too. Powders that produce more heat will add to that.

3.) bullet weight, heavy bullets normally wearing throats out significantly quicker than equivalent loads with lighter bullets.

Taking point 3.), first, what's an equivalent load? One that produces the same ME and uses the same type, not necessarily grade of powder. So your 185gn combination at 2,590 produces 2,756 ft/lb ME; the same energy with the 155.5gn Berger is produced at 2,825 fps which will be a very modest performer if you're running a 30" or longer barrel. So, if you you used H. VarGet to produce both loads, they'd both be well below the allowed SAAMI / CIP PMax values. Let's see what QuickLOAD says using a 56.0gn water capacity case (around what you see with Lapua) and assuming you are using a 30-inch barrel with chambers that require the same COAL of 2.900-inch to be just off the rifling

155.5 Berger BT at 2,825 fps MV = 44.4gn Varget / 50,193 psi PMax
185gn Berger LRBT at 2,590 fps MV = 41.5gn Varget / 50,713 psi Pmax

Since they're producing equivalent energies, not too surprisingly they're calculated to use pressures that aren't too far apart, so sheer pressure won't affect barrel life unduly in this case.

However, even though they are equivalent loads in terms of internal ballistics, the 185gn Berger will likely give a better external ballistics result in a crosswind at long ranges despite their having almost identical 'form factors' or numerical efficiency values, the 155.5 rated at 0.988, the 185 at 0.985. That's because with two similarly efficient bullet designs at equivalent MVs, the heavier bullet always moves less in any given wind condition.

So uUsing Bryan Litz's range-test acquired G7 BCs, and his PM Ballistics Solver 2 external ballistics software, 10 mph 90-deg crosswind drift at the 800 yards you say you're interested in will be:

155.5 (G7 BC 0.237) / 2,825 fps MV: 58.4-inches (6.97-MOA)
185 (G7 BC 0.283) / 2,590 fps MV: 52.93-inches (6.3-MOA)

Both combinations produce similar terminal velocities at ~1,470 fps, so transonic flight worries aren't a factor.

To get the 155.5gn to the same 800yd wind drift figures, MV has to be raised to 3,000 fps and that needs a maximum load of VarGet, so we're running at 60,000 psi in Lapua brass maybe a shade more.

So, on the face of it, your view is clearly right as we have to run our loads at markedly higher chamber pressures to get equivalent wind performance at long ranges.

On the other hand ....... ! Heavier bullets wear the barrel throat out faster all other being equal because they have substantially greater inertia and therefore require considerably more time and pressure to get them moving down the barrel. Because they accelerate much more slowly than a light bullet, whatever maximum pressure and temperature is produced is applied to the barrel metal for a considerably longer period, so it heats faster.

How these two competing factors balance out in your case and which 'wins out' is an interesting question - one I've no answer to. Using Mikecr's barrel life spreadsheet says your solution wins handsomely at 4,311 rounds barrel life to 2,841 with the 155.5s at a much higher pressure, but the formula takes no account of bullet weight.

The other factor is of course, real-life results on the range. I've done a lot of analysis of my (corrected) wind plots from competitions at various distances up to 1,000 yards over the UK's three main long-distance ranges, Diggle, Blair Atholl and Bisley looking at the actual shot-to-shot changes in corrected wind and then using an external ballistics program to convert that back to the equivalent 90-deg wind speed change. It's the shot to shot change that's important, so a day with light but very variable winds can be much harder to cope with than one where the wind averages 25 mph, but sees pretty well constant angles and speeds. I've been surprised at the relatively small shot-to-shot wind speed changes seen in most matches when looked at this way, but you don't have to be much out in your wind-reading to drop points on the F-Class target of course. The point here is what bullet weight suits your rifle set-up, shooting style etc and which gives the smallest groups. The shorter the distance, and the better the conditions, the more important the need for the load combination to shoot as small groups as possible, and for the shooter to find that he or she can hold that load really tight.

Well ... that's the conclusion I've come to over time, others will very likely disagree and in their circumstances, an alternative approach will be better. What I have seen on the GB national scene where all rounds are shot over 800-1,200yd except one short-range season opener, and where 1,000yd is by far the dominant distance in terms of shots fired / points on offer is that over a season with two long-range matches on each of the three UK long distance ranges over a wide variety of weather conditions, is that the bullet weight benefits / disbenefits even themselves out - we get wins with people shooting 155/155.5s and with others shooting 210-230s, and our top two 2012 league placeholders, nothing between them points wise over the season was a 210gn Berger VLD shooter followed by a 155.5gn BT user. The European Championship six match contest went to a 155.5gn user in 2012 and a 185gn LRBT user the previous year, in each case by a convincing winning margin. Bear in mind too that we shoot alternatively in pairs with a 45-second rule. That is after the target reappears from your partner's shot, you have a mere 45 seconds to note and agree his/her score, read the conditions for your shot and take it. With two shooting together, it'll be around 2 minutes from your previous shot - more than enough time for a significant wind change to occur.

So far as the barrel life question goes, I'm intrigued by my own analysis and Mikercr's barrel life spreadsheet results for the two alternative bullet weight / MV options. I'll be honest and say I'm not convinced that it works out like that in real life as I know many people getting very good barrel life indeed with the lighter bullets running at over 3,000 fps, some well over - but it makes you think alright!
 
Interesting thread - I am building an FTR rig at the moment and was going to go with the 185s...although I have these dimensions from Dave K - I would get a 336nk for the turned brass or .3415 for no turn and the single shot throat is .188fb to .199fb

I am beginning to think that a reamer with no FB and a throating reamer is the way to go.

I have compared our last two seasons nationals and the 1000 yards pretty much wins it....the ranges run from 300 - 1000 with two relays of 900 and 1000 on the second to last day and 900 for the actual final. Comparing the final results everyone is pretty much neck and neck until 1000 when small errors cause big points losses. My assumption is that with the 185s I should be able to hang in there at the shorter distances, but I will come into my own at 1000.

My other assumption is that even with the 185s in order to control the recoil/torque the right setup needs to be used, this in turn will help keep the 185s running with the lighter projectiles at the shorts.

My final assumption was - 155s I have to run at higher pressures - there isn't much wiggle room, the 185s I have a little more wiggle room with respect to accuracy and transonic stability.
 
Comparing the final results everyone is pretty much neck and neck until 1000 when small errors cause big points losses.

Absolutely - 1K is the killer distance that sorts the ultimate F/TR experts out. It really shows up in the annual European Championship match at Bisley where there 2 x 2+15s each at 800 and 900 plus 1 x 2+15 at 1K and 1 x 2+20 at 1K. If it were limited to the four 800 and 900 yd matches, the number of dropped points would be relatively much smaller and the top 10 or even 20 shooters would have a far fewer number of points across their aggregate scores. (F/TR would often have aggs much closer to F-Open too than we get after the 1K matches are factored in.)

In four out of our six league rounds, those shot at Diggle and Blair Atholl, all matches are now shot at 1K, so life never gets any easier.

My assumption is that with the 185s I should be able to hang in there at the shorter distances, but I will come into my own at 1000.


Hmmm - maybe, maybe not. I've seen 155.5, 185, 210 and the 200+230gn Berger Hybrid users win longer range stages (including Paul Crosbie walking away with the 1,200 yard stage in the Bisley Long-Range Challenge meeting last summer using 200gn Hybrids from a 28-inch barrel - his score was so much ahead of everybody else's it was a whitewash and he beat more than half the Open competitors too!). What we do see in this meeting with three 1K matches, 1 x 2+15 at 1,100yd and 1 x 2+20 at 1,200yd, is that even the best of the 155s driven very fast indeed struggle to be competitive at 1,100/1,200. The 185 LRBT at 2,800 still shoots well at 1,200.

The 185 LRBT is a great compromise in my view and if it's driven fast enough, it seems to hold its elevation superbly at 1,000. ~2,800 fps MV seems to be ideal for this range, although a bit slower still often works. I'm not at all sure what the 'floor MV' - maybe 2,750 fps, maybe a bit higher. That does require some serious pressures and/or double-base powders.

On freebores, at least two of our F/TR orientated gunsmiths have gone down the route you suggest of a no-throat chamber reamer followed by throating out separately to suit the customer's desired bullet. Not every precision rifle 'smith likes this practice though.

We have a PT&G reamer here (don't ask me the drawing number) that goes back to when nearly everybody shot the 155gn Lapua Scenar in long-range F/TR and was devised by Vince Bottomley, the top long-range UK benchrester. As this is a very long bullet for its weight, the chamber has an unusually long freebore for one set up for 155s being minimum SAAMI body/neck with the leade suited to the Scenar seated shallow. When new bullets later arrived, it turned out this chamber suited the 175 and 185gn Berger LRBT really well too, and the various 175-190gn VLDs that are around as well. It's a marvellously flexible chamber and suits a huge range of bullets, even some of the 210s albeit seated a bit deeper than ideal. All you need is to marry it to 1-12" rifling twist rate and you can shoot almost everything from the original 155gn Sierra MK to the Berger 190gn VLD and its JLK equivalents. The only long-range bullet that I've not had any great success with in two barrels chambered with this reamer has been the new model 155gn Sierra MK #2156 - maybe too much jump for it. In a 1-10" twist Broughton with this chamber, that was a fantastic barrel, I'd shoot 155gn Dyer HBCs ('Aussie shrapnel', some of our league shooters refer to them as!) over N150 in old thin 160gn Norma brass at maybe 2,925 fps for short-range; the 185 LRBT over N550 in standard Lapua cases at 2,825 fps for most long-range club matches and league rounds; 208gn Hornady A-Max in small primer Lapua brass over a really hefty charge of Re17 for some LR matches in poor conditions.

Unfortunately, too much load development off the bench for data for writing magazine features, testing new bullets and powders etc plus way too much shooting with maximum N550 and Re17 loads killed that barrel off after a tragically short life.
 
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