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Freebore diameters

FireMedic

Silver $$ Contributor
I’m curious what everyone’s thoughts are on freebore diameters?

I’ve heard arguments that you want a tight freebore to help align the bullet. Most of my reamers are .0005 over groove diameter.

I also have reamers with .001-.002 over groove diameter, and they seem to shoot equally as well.

We cut these chambers concentric to the bore within .0001, and then we size a piece of brass .004 under chamber body dimensions. What is keeping the bullet centered? Is it the shoulder? The neck and freebore have clearance.
 
To many variables to give a straight , simple answer to this . Discipline , BR , F class , or other . Caliber . Turned neck , or No-Turn . All of these things come into play . So what may work in one caliber for one Discipline , may not work in another . And regarding what aligns the round to the barrel , It is generally considered the Shoulder of the case does the majority of the alignment , unless you are loading the bullet "Into the Lands" .
 
If you look at a CIP drawing for a 6.5x55 the freebore is really large at .2693. Bullet diameter usually runs close to .2645.
I am also interested in this one.
 
To many variables to give a straight , simple answer to this . Discipline , BR , F class , or other . Caliber . Turned neck , or No-Turn . All of these things come into play . So what may work in one caliber for one Discipline , may not work in another . And regarding what aligns the round to the barrel , It is generally considered the Shoulder of the case does the majority of the alignment , unless you are loading the bullet "Into the Lands" .
I understand that different disciplines have different accuracy requirements.

But I would think the fundamentals of what makes a chamber dimension more inherently accurate then another, would be the same across the board.
 
My .223 Rem F-TR rifles are chambered with long (0.169" or 0.220") freebores for the 90+ gr .224" bullets. Both reamer prints list the freebore diameter at 0.2242" (within their tolerances). The freebore in these rifles is tight enough that it will stop a bullet moving out toward "touching" the lands when using a Hornady OAL gauge. In fact, you have to push pretty hard on the stick before the bullet starts moving again within the freebore, until you finally feel them "touching" the lands. In my experience, the barrels I've had cut with these tight freebore reamers have been stupidly accurate. 5 shot groups fired using my F-TR setup (i.e. bipod) and tuned loads are routinely at around 0.25 MOA at 115 yd, and on occasion will be as low as in the mid/upper 0.1s. I'm fairly convinced that by far the limiting source of error in terms of precision of these rifles is me.

My .308 Rem F-TR rifles also have long freebores, but according to the reamer prints the freebore diameters are all 0.3085" (within their tolerances). When using the Hornady OAL gauge, the bullets slide completely freely through the freebore until touching the lands. There is literally almost no resistance until they touch the lands, which makes is very easy to measure and is noticeably different from the .223s. Tuned loads in several of these rifles shoot almost as well my two .223s, with 0.25 MOA groups not uncommon, and occasionally a tick better. If I had to compare the two different calibers/freebore diameters directly, I'd say the innate precision between the two is so close the difference is not worth discussion. In fairness, I do feel the .223s have a touch better precision in practice, but that's likely due to the markedly lower recoil. They're just a bit easier to shoot, rather than necessarily being inherently more accurate/precise.

Along this line, I've had several conversations with Dave Kiff at PTG regarding tight freebores, their effect on alignment of the bullet with a chambered round, and ultimately, precision. My impression was that Dave also seems to think there may be some benefit in terms of innate precision to having the tight freebore, although proving there is a difference that is statistically significant may not be such an easy row to hoe. How many groups would one actually have to fire to reliably demonstrate some rather small difference such as 0.25 MOA versus something like 0.20 MOA? I can also imagine that any precision difference between a tight versus slightly looser freebore might also depend largely on the bullet used. It might be very obvious with some, not at all obvious with others. My gut feeling tells me that a freebore diameter difference of 2-3 ten thousands such as my rifles have is not typically going to generate results that have an "in your face" obvious difference in precision, at least, not with the bullets I've been using. Perhaps stretching out the distance might also make it a little easier to reliably detect a difference, but out to 600 yd, I can't say with any certainty that I can currently tell the difference.
 
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The freebore in these rifles is tight enough that it will stop a bullet moving out toward "touching" the lands when using a Hornady OAL gauge. In fact, you have to push pretty hard on the stick before the bullet starts moving again within the freebore, until you finally feel them "touching" the lands. In my experience, the barrels I've had cut with these tight freebore reamers have been stupidly accurate.

There is an interesting feature in a slim recent Lyman publication called The Long Range Precision Rifle Reloading Handbook by former Hornady design guru Dave Emary - The History and Design of the 6.5 and 6mm Creedmoor.

I had wondered about a mere 0.0005" throat clearance on a factory cartridge / rifle set-up when the Creedmoor first appeared. This article gives the rationale, and I quote:


"We [David Emary + Dennis DeMille] felt the toughest part of the [cartridge inherent precision] requirements was to design a chamber / cartridge that would produce high levels of accuracy even with mass produced firearms and ammunition.

There is one in thing in particular that has an overwhelming contribution to accuracy that can ultimately be produced from a cartridge / chamber combination. Limit and control as much as possible projectile Principle Axis Tilt (PAT). I know that this is a new term, but it has been around in the aeroballistic world for a time. It is very simple, force the projectile to enter the rifling as straight and true as possible. ............. The fundamental thing that effects PAT is the diameter of the lead or the freebore relative to that of the bullet.

The best way to design a throat is to provide approximately 0.0005" clearance between bullet and throat."


........ and more.

One problem I found in the Creedmoor's early days was over-tight bullet to throat fit. One factory rifle I tried was apparently undersize giving no clearance with most makes of bullet, and they simply didn't shoot well in it. (While a slightly undersize model did very well indeed.) Some bullets hit or exceeded 0.2645" so even an exact spec chamber gave an interference fit.
 
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My .223 Rem F-TR rifles are chambered with long (0.169" or 0.220") freebores for the 90+ gr .224" bullets. Both reamer prints list the freebore diameter at 0.2242" (within their tolerances). The freebore in these rifles is tight enough that it will stop a bullet moving out toward "touching" the lands when using a Hornady OAL gauge. In fact, you have to push pretty hard on the stick before the bullet starts moving again within the freebore, until you finally feel them "touching" the lands. In my experience, the barrels I've had cut with these tight freebore reamers have been stupidly accurate. 5 shot groups fired using my F-TR setup (i.e. bipod) and tuned loads are routinely at around 0.25 MOA at 115 yd, and on occasion will be as low as in the mid/upper 0.1s. I'm fairly convinced that by far the limiting source of error in terms of precision of these rifles is me.

My .308 Rem F-TR rifles also have long freebores, but according to the reamer prints the freebore diameters are all 0.3085" (within their tolerances). When using the Hornady OAL gauge, the bullets slide completely freely through the freebore until touching the lands. There is literally almost no resistance until they touch the lands, which makes is very easy to measure and is noticeably different from the .223s. Tuned loads in several of these rifles shoot almost as well my two .223s, with 0.25 MOA groups not uncommon, and occasionally a tick better. If I had to compare the two different calibers/freebore diameters directly, I'd say the innate precision between the two is so close the difference is not worth discussion. In fairness, I do feel the .223s have a touch better precision in practice, but that's likely due to the markedly lower recoil. They're just a bit easier to shoot, rather than necessarily being inherently more accurate/precise.

Along this line, I've had several conversations with Dave Kiff at PTG regarding tight freebores, their effect on alignment of the bullet with a chambered round, and ultimately, precision. My impression was that Dave also seems to think there may be some benefit in terms of innate precision to having the tight freebore, although proving there is a difference that is statistically significant may not be such an easy row to hoe. How many groups would one actually have to fire to reliably demonstrate some rather small difference such as 0.25 MOA versus something like 0.20 MOA? I can also imagine that any precision difference between a tight versus slightly looser freebore might also depend largely on the bullet used. It might be very obvious with some, not at all obvious with others. My gut feeling tells me that a freebore diameter difference of 2-3 ten thousands such as my rifles have is not typically going to generate results that have an "in your face" obvious difference in precision, at least, not with the bullets I've been using. Perhaps stretching out the distance might also make it a little easier to reliably detect a difference, but out to 600 yd, I can't say with any certainty that I can currently tell the difference.
Very good info. Thank you
 
There is an interesting feature in a slim recent Lyman publication called The Long Range Precision Rifle Reloading Handbook by former Hornady design guru Dave Emary - The History and Design of the 6.5 and 6mm Creedmoor.

I had wondered about a mere 0.0005" throat clearance on a factory cartridge / rifle set-up when the Creedmoor first appeared. This article gives the rationale, and I quote:


"We [David Emary + Dennis DeMille] felt the toughest part of the [cartridge inherent precision] requirements was to design a chamber / cartridge that would produce high levels of accuracy even with mass produced firearms and ammunition.

There is one in thing in particular that has an overwhelming contribution to accuracy that can ultimately be produced from a cartridge / chamber combination. Limit and control as much as possible projectile Principle Axis Tilt (PAT). I know that this is a new term, but it has been around in the aeroballistic world for a time. It is very simple, force the projectile to enter the rifling as straight and true as possible. ............. The fundamental thing that effects PAT is the diameter of the lead or the freebore relative to that of the bullet.

The best way to design a throat is to provide approximately 0.0005" clearance between bullet and throat."


........ and more.

One problem I found in the Creedmoor's early days was over-tight bullet to throat fit. One factory rifle I tried was apparently undersize giving no clearance with most makes of bullet, and they simply didn't shoot well in it. (While a slightly undersize model did very well indeed.) Some bullets hit or exceeded 0.2645" so even an exact spec chamber gave an interference fit.
I can't personally say whether having a 0.2242" freebore diameter is technically undersized, whether the Berger 90 VLDs might actually be a few ten thousandths oversized, or some combination of both. What I can say with certainty is that when using the Hornady OAL gauge, the bullets stop when they hit the freebore, and it takes an extra push on the stick to get them moving out toward the lands again. Comparison of those two .223 Rem rifles to my .308 F-TR rifles having freebores that are ~.0005" over bullet diameter may be a little like apples to oranges. Nonetheless, they all shoot well. I rather doubt most shooters could detect a difference between the two. Perhaps BR shooters could do it with sufficient time and testing. I also imagine the tighter freebore would cause slightly higher starting pressure. There may be other considerations to having a "tight" freebore as well, but I've been very pleased with the way the .223s shoot.
 
If it works @Ned, don't knock it as they say!

The two 6.5CM rifles I had issues with were very tight. In one (not factory but chambered with a reamer that had to have been ground too small), the bullet had faint rifling marks along its entire bearing surface after chambering and unloading as the rifling hadn't even been cut out completely in the throat. It just wouldn't shoot well at all! (Not terribly actually, but nothing like it should have done with its spec.) The other, a factory rifle, was so tight that some bullet models couldn't be pushed through the throat with the Hornady gauge. It just accepted Nosler 140 CCs, and they actually shot brilliantly in it. After a few hundred rounds fired, the rear end of the throat started to become eroded and burned with short shallow cracks appearing. (Another example of the same rifle model that I know of was returned to the dealer, then distributor, as faulty because 'it wouldn't chamber factory ammo'!)

I've been thinking through where BR practice fits in with this PAT business. As best I can see, see BR chambers have no freebore to speak of and with such a close case to chamber fit and top gunsmithing, the bullet is naturally aligned with the bore, and just to make 100% sure they jam-fit the bullet into the lands on chambering the round. With 200+ thou' of bullet shank sitting forward of the case not / even barely touching anything, you're in a world of difference, but miniscule clearances are an alternative answer to get to the same result
 
So with 6mm BR, BRA, Dasher, etc., which freebore diam’s should I spec when ordering reamers…2435” or .2438”… or does it matter?
 
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So with 6mm BR, BRA, Dasher, etc., which freebore diam’s should I spec when ordering reamers…2435” or .2438”… or does it matter?
I hope that gunsmiths reply to this question as I’m definitely not one! I will pose a follow up question - regardless of it’s starting diameter, how long does it take for combustion gasses to erode the throat thereby increasing its diameter? I’ve seen some severely fire cracked throats, but never measured their diameter…
 
If you look at a reamer print, it will probably say the tolerance for the diameter of the neck and throat is +.0005".

If the reamer is made to specs, and you ask for a freebore diameter of .2435", the diameter will be no smaller than .2435" and no larger than .2440".

If you ask for .2438", it will be no smaller than .2438" and no larger than .2443".
 

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