Just received my re-barreled Mod 70. I had a Brux #4 contour bbl 7mm 26" 9" twist barrel installed on a Win Mod 70 Classic Lamanated stock .Gun smith didn't free float the barrel channel. Is that bad ? I plan to shoot a lot .
Free Floating of the forarm is it absolutly essential
- Thread starter Ironworker
- Start date
Its not a "Bull Barrel" Measures .670 at muzzle ? I'm reading that sporter bbls need a pressure point at tip of forearm. Hate to have to take it back to gun smith. Thought a laminate stock didn't move in weather like a standard wood stock ?
I've free floated a couple rifles that had a pressure point with mixed results.
I would shot it as it is and see. If you think it might shoot better sand out the channel and float the barrel. If it shoots worse, it is real easy to build the pressure point back up and return it to where it was before. You can use epoxy although I've done it with a thick piece of paper soaked in gun oil.
I relieved the pressure on one rifle and the barrel dropped so much my scope didn't have enough adjustment to accommodate the drop, so I had to change to a scope with more adjustment.
I would shot it as it is and see. If you think it might shoot better sand out the channel and float the barrel. If it shoots worse, it is real easy to build the pressure point back up and return it to where it was before. You can use epoxy although I've done it with a thick piece of paper soaked in gun oil.
I relieved the pressure on one rifle and the barrel dropped so much my scope didn't have enough adjustment to accommodate the drop, so I had to change to a scope with more adjustment.
Had a Remington 700 22-250, all factory, with the varmint contour barrel and the little bump of walnut at the 6:00 position in the forend. The rifle always held moa or slightly less. As an experiment, removed the bump, fully floating the barrel, and group sizes doubled. Nothing else was changed. Put the pressure point back in using bedding mat'l and the original group sizes returned. Also have a Ruger #1, Shilen barrel, sporter contour, 223. It also had a pressure pad in the forend and after 3 or 4 shots, a lot of vertical would always develop. Took the pad out, fully floating the barrel, and the vast majority of vertical went away. What little remains is clearly caused by the barrel getting too warm. So that's two opposite examples, but except for the Rem. factory 22-250, (long gone now, rebarreled ), all my present barrels are floated for the best groups. One of my gunsmith's believes sporter weight barrels are better suited to "up" pressure, varmint and heavier contours are not. This seems like one of those areas that have to be tried, both ways.
Larryh128
Silver $$ Contributor
All of my rifles are free floated and they go from #1 contour up thru #5 varmint contours. They all shoot & point of impact doesn't wander, no heating up etc. I have free floated some lightweight hunting rifles that "needed" pressure point bedding. They all shot much better free floated but it is absolutely necessary to properly bed the action or free floating can aggrevate a poorly bedded action & open up group sizes. With that said, see how it shoots, some properly bedded , pressure point rifles shoot very well but I prefer not.
If you look at the actual amount of thread that holds the barrel into the receiver on a M-70 Winchester, you can see that there is not alot of support. Even though I have read several articles that say the Winchester action is more rigid than the Remington. It doesnt have but a 3/4" long thread extension. Kinda like holding a baseball bat horizontal to the deck with the tips of your fingers pinching on the end of the grip 
.
All that being said; IMHO and experience, the M-70 likes a little forend tension and bedding at the tip of the forend. I have found this to be true on several M-70's I've rebarreled over the years. My present, not so purty, .30/06 match rifle has a hugemongous HV taper tube on it in a McMillan Marksman stock. It absolutely loves that forend touch. MOF, in the process of setting up that pad. I hung a 10# weight from the handstop swivel pushed to the farthest extension up the rail toward the forend tip. I let this hang in place with the action tensioned into the stock while the bedding was curing at the tip. Will they all need this treatment? Each one is an experiment waiting to be performed. All of those I have encountered have benefitted by this bedding method.
I believe this is an appropriate place to broach this question; Another thought came to my old bald cranium ;D while on the subject of forend bedding/or not. What do you'all think about using Silicone RTV in the forend as a harmonic dampener. It may not do well for rapid fire and hot barrels, but for a slow fire application? I believe there is a stock that was available some years back, sold by Sinclair International that used a "soft bedding method". I was never clear on that system, however.
My general thought was to properly bed the receiver and fill the forend with RTV? Or even a pressure pad of RTV at the tip? As opposed to the epoxy/ metalized epoxy or bedding block at the forend tip. Greg
.All that being said; IMHO and experience, the M-70 likes a little forend tension and bedding at the tip of the forend. I have found this to be true on several M-70's I've rebarreled over the years. My present, not so purty, .30/06 match rifle has a hugemongous HV taper tube on it in a McMillan Marksman stock. It absolutely loves that forend touch. MOF, in the process of setting up that pad. I hung a 10# weight from the handstop swivel pushed to the farthest extension up the rail toward the forend tip. I let this hang in place with the action tensioned into the stock while the bedding was curing at the tip. Will they all need this treatment? Each one is an experiment waiting to be performed. All of those I have encountered have benefitted by this bedding method.
I believe this is an appropriate place to broach this question; Another thought came to my old bald cranium ;D while on the subject of forend bedding/or not. What do you'all think about using Silicone RTV in the forend as a harmonic dampener. It may not do well for rapid fire and hot barrels, but for a slow fire application? I believe there is a stock that was available some years back, sold by Sinclair International that used a "soft bedding method". I was never clear on that system, however.
My general thought was to properly bed the receiver and fill the forend with RTV? Or even a pressure pad of RTV at the tip? As opposed to the epoxy/ metalized epoxy or bedding block at the forend tip. Greg
bigedp51
As an example the Remington 700 was designed with 3 to 9 pounds of up pressure at the fore end tip to control barrel vibrations and aid accuracy with factory loaded ammunition.
NOTE: You do not shoot reloads in combat with a standard issued military rifle. The "RIFLE" is always "tuned" to the standard military issued ammunition.
If the rifle was not designed to have a free floating barrel and "YOU" free float the barrel you are "detuning" the barrel that was set up to fire factory loaded ammunition.
Do you really think the fire arms manufactures put up pressure on standard sporter weight barrels just for the fun of it?
When you pull the trigger and the cartridge goes "bang" the barrel because of gravity and chamber pressure immediately starts flexing downward. When the barrel reaches the extreme downward movement it starts upward and flexing to almost the same degree. Also while the barrel is moving up and down it is vibrating like a tuning fork.
In the photo below is a target fired at 50 yards with a military .303 British Enfield that is to have 2 to 7 pounds of up pressure at the fore end tip. This 1943 Enfield is suffering from lack of armourers maintenance and a dried out fore arm that is no longer a tight fit and does "NOT" have any up pressure at the fore end tip.
Below after I rebedding the fore arm and adjusting the bedding for the correct amount of up pressure at the fore end tip.
Remember, you either tune the rifle or tune your ammunition by reloading or both. But don't ever think that up pressure isn't needed or that free floating your barrel will fix all your rifles problems.
NOTE: You do not shoot reloads in combat with a standard issued military rifle. The "RIFLE" is always "tuned" to the standard military issued ammunition.
If the rifle was not designed to have a free floating barrel and "YOU" free float the barrel you are "detuning" the barrel that was set up to fire factory loaded ammunition.
Do you really think the fire arms manufactures put up pressure on standard sporter weight barrels just for the fun of it?
When you pull the trigger and the cartridge goes "bang" the barrel because of gravity and chamber pressure immediately starts flexing downward. When the barrel reaches the extreme downward movement it starts upward and flexing to almost the same degree. Also while the barrel is moving up and down it is vibrating like a tuning fork.
In the photo below is a target fired at 50 yards with a military .303 British Enfield that is to have 2 to 7 pounds of up pressure at the fore end tip. This 1943 Enfield is suffering from lack of armourers maintenance and a dried out fore arm that is no longer a tight fit and does "NOT" have any up pressure at the fore end tip.
Below after I rebedding the fore arm and adjusting the bedding for the correct amount of up pressure at the fore end tip.
Remember, you either tune the rifle or tune your ammunition by reloading or both. But don't ever think that up pressure isn't needed or that free floating your barrel will fix all your rifles problems.
bigedp51 said:
No, it's usually just a cheap way to get round bedding that couldn't stand alone. A 2c bit of stuff that gives tip pressure is way cheaper than an individual bedding job or a stock like those on the Rem Varmint models that provides reasonably good bedding contact.
Chris-NZ
bigedp51
ChrisNZ said:
So your saying Remington and the British military didn't know what they were doing. And Mauser didn't know what they were doing by by cutting steps in their barrels at the vibration node points.
During WWII Holland and Holland rejected outright any Enfield rifle delivered to them for conversion to a No.4 (T) sniper rifle that didn't have the required 2 to 7 pounds of up pressure at the fore end tip. These rejected rifles were immediately sent back to there owning organisations.
You either tune the rifle to shoot the ammunition, or tune the ammunition for each rifle and only sniper rifles receive further "tuning". (or military rifles used in competition)
Below as an example is the bedding requirments for the No.4 Enfield rifle and bedding point "E" is the fore end tip of the stock where 2 to 7 pounds of up pressure was required.
NOTE: "Center bedding" is adding up pressure at the Enfield barrel mid-point and the finial "tuning" is still done at the fore end tip with cork packing.
If a new rifle is designed from the ground up to have a free floating barrel like the Stevens 200 with pillar bedding that is one thing. BUT a new Remington 700 ADL does not have piller bedding or a free floating barrel and "was" designed to have 3 to 9 pounds of up pressure at the fore end tip.
You do not have to believe me but maybe you will believe Mr. Jon R. Sundra
Understanding Barrel Bedding
http://www.rifleshootermag.com/gunsmithing/bedding_0304/
There are many ways to "tune" a rifle for accuracy, below a very good video on "barrel" tuning. Any rifle equipped with the BOSS has a free floating barrel and was designed from the ground up for this system.
Browning BOSS Accuracy System Video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQGI6HYsTBU
Both fore end up pressure and the BOSS system is used to control barrel vibrations. If you free float your barrel and do nothing else to your rifle chances are your accuracy will get "WORSE" and "NOT" better because you will detune the barrel and allow it to flex and vibrate freely.
Go ahead and free float your barrel and ruin the accuracy built into your rifle by the design engineers.
You must understand bedding principles, barrel weights and designs before jumping into the unknown.
I'll agree that typical mass production rifles in poorly inletted, flimsy stocks are helped by a pressure point in the fore arm. After all, they are produced at the lowest cost point possible with the technology available at the time of production.
On the other hand, regardless of profile, a well built custom does not benefit from fore arm pressure.
Case in point. My 79 year old father decided he needed a lighter field varminter. He had a custom built based on a Model 7, fully blueprinted, with a carbon fiber stock that weighed in at 15-/12 ounces, and a barrel profile that looked more like a bass rod. Aluminum mounts and rings, and the lightest 6X scope he could find. The thing is disgustingly accurate, firing virtually any 50 gr range bullet under 1/2 moa and match bullets into bugholes. Of course with that thin a barrel a high rate of fire is not possible without damage.
Case in point on the other side. I have a Model 70 classic in one of the cheap injection molded stocks with a barrel pressure point, it needs the barrel pressure point. When I get around to putting it in a good stock (McMillan Sako Varminter style) and bedding it, I suspect it won't. Just like the one before it.
And those old Enfields? Yes, they needed the fore end pressure. They weren't exactly precision inletted, they certainly weren't precision bedded with modern compounds, and the old rear lug actions weren't all that stiff either. Humidity could raise it's ugly head too. I've got a couple of old rifles in solid wood stocks that need the action screw torque tuned from summer to winter to get the best accuracy for that matter. Old timers knew all that stuff.
And the last thing I would do is call the fore end pressure point a modern precision engineered feature, it's an old black powder marksman technique at least two centuries old. Leave it to some publicity department to call it an engineered feature rather than what it is, a very old tuning technique adapted to allow decent performance at lowest possible production cost for a rifle. ;D
On the other hand, regardless of profile, a well built custom does not benefit from fore arm pressure.
Case in point. My 79 year old father decided he needed a lighter field varminter. He had a custom built based on a Model 7, fully blueprinted, with a carbon fiber stock that weighed in at 15-/12 ounces, and a barrel profile that looked more like a bass rod. Aluminum mounts and rings, and the lightest 6X scope he could find. The thing is disgustingly accurate, firing virtually any 50 gr range bullet under 1/2 moa and match bullets into bugholes. Of course with that thin a barrel a high rate of fire is not possible without damage.
Case in point on the other side. I have a Model 70 classic in one of the cheap injection molded stocks with a barrel pressure point, it needs the barrel pressure point. When I get around to putting it in a good stock (McMillan Sako Varminter style) and bedding it, I suspect it won't. Just like the one before it.
And those old Enfields? Yes, they needed the fore end pressure. They weren't exactly precision inletted, they certainly weren't precision bedded with modern compounds, and the old rear lug actions weren't all that stiff either. Humidity could raise it's ugly head too. I've got a couple of old rifles in solid wood stocks that need the action screw torque tuned from summer to winter to get the best accuracy for that matter. Old timers knew all that stuff.
And the last thing I would do is call the fore end pressure point a modern precision engineered feature, it's an old black powder marksman technique at least two centuries old. Leave it to some publicity department to call it an engineered feature rather than what it is, a very old tuning technique adapted to allow decent performance at lowest possible production cost for a rifle. ;D
While this can be argued back and forth all day and get nowhere. We are talking about receiver flexibility and moment as well as harmonics. Precision matches such as BR, F-class, Hunter bench and Long range are dominated by rigid precision built actions with long barrel tenon threads and modern bedding techniques. A point of emphasis here is that even a Remington action that has been blueprinted for use in one of these rifles has a longer threaded barrel extension than any M-70, Enfield, 98 Mauser, which are conspicuously absent in modern precision shooting. Most custom receivers have more than 1" of threaded tenon. Therefore the greater ability to hold a long/heavy barrel and eliminating the need for a "forearm support". In extreme examples the barrel is clamped into a barrel block and then that block is bedded, eliminating the stress on the receiver.
When speaking of barrel threads of the old military rifle receivers, what a hodgpog of designs! Square threads(Springfield 1903), Buttress threads with 2 points of contact on a very short tenon(Mauser 98). Slots for extractors cut into the feeding cone (1903 Springfield). My Lee Enfield knowledge is limited in this area, however, we are dealing with mechanical assembly ideas that were still popular when Custer was a Corporal ;D. Bedding was state of the art for the time with a hand scraped inlet. Its amazing that the "old masters" recognized "harmonics" in a barrel/breech plug assembly on a front end loader! Did not the M-1 Garand have square receiver threads, a short barrel tenon and shot best with tension on the front of the stock against the hardware that was attached to the barrel? I seem to remember that bedding technique from way back when, while accurizing an M-1 according to instructions in the Army TM.
My conclusion in all this is dont rule out anything. Keep the equation complete, allow for unknowns. Do try to find any inconsistancies and correct them. Greg
When speaking of barrel threads of the old military rifle receivers, what a hodgpog of designs! Square threads(Springfield 1903), Buttress threads with 2 points of contact on a very short tenon(Mauser 98). Slots for extractors cut into the feeding cone (1903 Springfield). My Lee Enfield knowledge is limited in this area, however, we are dealing with mechanical assembly ideas that were still popular when Custer was a Corporal ;D. Bedding was state of the art for the time with a hand scraped inlet. Its amazing that the "old masters" recognized "harmonics" in a barrel/breech plug assembly on a front end loader! Did not the M-1 Garand have square receiver threads, a short barrel tenon and shot best with tension on the front of the stock against the hardware that was attached to the barrel? I seem to remember that bedding technique from way back when, while accurizing an M-1 according to instructions in the Army TM.
My conclusion in all this is dont rule out anything. Keep the equation complete, allow for unknowns. Do try to find any inconsistancies and correct them. Greg
This discussion reminds me of why I wouldn't own a Remington, much less shoot one as 'tuned' with factory friggin ammo..
While the BOSS can help, without hurting. The same cannot be said about forearm contact. Especially with guns actually used in the field.
All that's said here is that a 'really really crappy' shooting factory gun might shoot only 'crappy'(which is really really better) with an abstract contact point along the barrel...
While that could be said about any gun barrel, it would stand as an undefined declaration, that doesn't pass all tests, and is therefore not a truth.
While the BOSS can help, without hurting. The same cannot be said about forearm contact. Especially with guns actually used in the field.
All that's said here is that a 'really really crappy' shooting factory gun might shoot only 'crappy'(which is really really better) with an abstract contact point along the barrel...
While that could be said about any gun barrel, it would stand as an undefined declaration, that doesn't pass all tests, and is therefore not a truth.
Actually, If you are an engineer or scientist with lab facilities at your disposal, the Truth could be defined for each individual firearm by measurement of the harmonics. Moment can be calculated and bedding adjusted for each individual firearm, right down to a "micro-Hz" 8). That includes blueprinting the action as the harmonics are affected(as I understand the science) by how the barrel contacts the receiver/recoil lug(where used), including the thread engagement and "crush". What load to you want it tuned to? That is, if you want to spend the time and money. 'Course, the individual cost goes through the roof! I understand your point, however, I still like Remingtons and Winchesters, and Springfields and Custom actions, etcetera 
. Its just like tuning a banjo! Greg
. Its just like tuning a banjo! GregI started this thread. My Mod 70 Laminate stock rifle has a glass bedded action. Receive it from gun smith last Tuesday with new bbl,but wasn't free floated. I shot it accuracy was average. I free floated it enough to be able to fold a dollar bill and fit it in bbl channel easily. Shot it today and it shot much better. Still need to fine tune that ammo.
bigedp51 said:
Remington and Lee Enfields are two totally different kettles of fish.
The three big issues with No.4's are firstly the "two piece" stock, secondly the rear locking action and thirdly various bits of wood that float round as part of "the forend". They are really a law unto themselves and can't be compared with a Remington. I have a Fulton-regulated No.4 (with the mandatory raking screws) that still shoots reasonably well, but "good" for a No.4 is anything better than 2" @100. They are notorious for going off the boil after intervention and the top NRA shooters in NZ in the .303 days would have at least 3 main rifles and keep their top one for the big championships, and even then they could go off the boil at any moment. The top guys always had a top gunsmith behind them, totally different to today when it's a much more level playing field and most rifles can be relied upon to carry on shooting til the barrel's worn out.
Back to the Remington- why is it their Varmint models are free-floated if "..the Remington 700 was designed with 3 to 9 pounds of up pressure at the fore end tip.."??? My VS is a great shooter and no sign of any tip pressure.
Chris-NZ
on a one peice wooden stock for hunting I would perfer free floating at the expence of accuracy for the simple fact of point of impact. if it were for a target/ varmint rifle I would go with fore end preassure since poi can be adjusted. one peice wood stocks are pretty much a thing of the past except for asthetics (looks) you can't beat wood for beauty or uniqueness.
my $.02
Darrell
my $.02
Darrell
Ironworker, Thats outstanding news! Keep up the good work. How long is the barrel on your M-70? Greg
ChrisNZ, Interesting about the Lee Enfield. Just to refine my points. I 've never seen a M-700 Remington shoot well with a pressure bedded forend. Why they do that I'll never know. However, thats mass production. Its easier to remove excess material than it is to build it in , after the fact? Greg
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