Found extremely filthy bore during load work up.

[ptf18]

I posted this on the USRIFLETEAMS web-site and thought I'ld ask it here.

Had my 30" Pac-Nor barreled 6mm250 at the range today as Im trying to come up with a accurate load for it. Havent shot the gun in 6 months or so. Ive shot the gun on and off over the past many years.

I was using Varget and IMR 4350. I shot 20 or so rounds of each powder and I cleaned the bore (as best I could) before switching powders.

My question is... I found the bore absouletly filthy using either powders when I cleaned it. I ran a dozen patches thru the bore and brushed about every 3rd swabbing and yet the bore was still producing dark patches.

I was thinking a couple, 3, 4 patches and I would be good to go but the first 3,4,5 patches came out black as coal dust. When the patches finally came out grayish I would run a brush down the bore the patches would be absolutely black as coal again.

I also noticed that the case necks seemed sooty. Not black, but they had a bit of soot on them. It didnt seem to matter as my powder charges increased. All the necks were sooty.

Any ideas here?

I wasnt overly impressed with the results I got ( I was chronographing and watch group sizes at 250 yards.) My main concern was finding a low SD/ES load. Got some in the 9 to mid teen area BUT I was only shooting 4-6 round groups. I know thats not enough to stake your hat on but I really just wanted to get some load ideas for a future starting point.

The cases I was using have 3 and 4 firings thru them and were Win 22-250 that I necked up to 6mm. I have not annealed the necks. I wondering if that maybe the reason the necks are sooty.

Perhaps I need a faster burning powder. The outside temperatures were in the low 50's. The Varget load was from 31.5gns to 32 and the IMR 4350 load was from 36gns to 37.

Thanks,

Lester

Im using SMK 107's and they are not jammed into the leade.

 

['Freak]

What bore cleaning solvent were you using?

 

[XTR]

I don't know what your load is or how high your pressures are, but if the pressure is too low you get poor burn. Load Varget into a 45-70 and you not only get dirty, there will be what looks like ¼ to ½ teaspoon of charred kernels in the bore.

 

[CatShooter]

I posted this on the USRIFLETEAMS web-site and thought I'ld ask it here.

Had my 30" Pac-Nor barreled 6mm250 at the range today as Im trying to come up with a accurate load for it. Havent shot the gun in 6 months or so. Ive shot the gun on and off over the past many years.

I was using Varget and IMR 4350. I shot 20 or so rounds of each powder and I cleaned the bore (as best I could) before switching powders.

My question is... I found the bore absouletly filthy using either powders when I cleaned it. I ran a dozen patches thru the bore and brushed about every 3rd swabbing and yet the bore was still producing dark patches.

I was thinking a couple, 3, 4 patches and I would be good to go but the first 3,4,5 patches came out black as coal dust. When the patches finally came out grayish I would run a brush down the bore the patches would be absolutely black as coal again.

I also noticed that the case necks seemed sooty. Not black, but they had a bit of soot on them. It didnt seem to matter as my powder charges increased. All the necks were sooty.

Any ideas here?

I wasnt overly impressed with the results I got ( I was chronographing and watch group sizes at 250 yards.) My main concern was finding a low SD/ES load. Got some in the 9 to mid teen area BUT I was only shooting 4-6 round groups. I know thats not enough to stake your hat on but I really just wanted to get some load ideas for a future starting point.

The cases I was using have 3 and 4 firings thru them and were Win 22-250 that I necked up to 6mm. I have not annealed the necks. I wondering if that maybe the reason the necks are sooty.

Perhaps I need a faster burning powder. The outside temperatures were in the low 50's. The Varget load was from 31.5gns to 32 and the IMR 4350 load was from 36gns to 37.

Thanks,

Lester

Im using SMK 107's and they are not jammed into the leade.

Use a brush initially and then only use patches. If you continue to use a brush after you are getting grey patches, you will be scrubbing the barrel for 9 years - each time you run the brush down the barrel, you leave a bunch of brass on the bore - like putting chalk on a black board.

When I was told this years ago, I did not believe it... until I chambered and fit a new barrel a few years ago, and went to clean it to get the machining crud out. I patched it and it came out white (as expected).

But then, on a whim, I brushed it, and the next patches came out black, and that started the cycle. I called a shooting buddy to come over and participate - we cleaned and patched and brushed, and patched that goddamned barrel all day, and we got black patches, green patches and white patches and then black patches, green patches and white patches, over and over.

And when we put the "black" patches in a cup with Hoppe's #9, the black turned out to be bronze from the brush (which was obvious to us by then).

So brush it hard one time and then patch it until it is clean.

 

[Shynloco]

I don't know what your load is or how high your pressures are, but if the pressure is too low you get poor burn. Load Varget into a 45-70 and you not only get dirty, there will be what looks like ¼ to ½ teaspoon of charred kernels in the bore.

Seems to me to be good advice. BTW, how do your primers look...cupping or normal? Both powders are what I consider "dirty shooting" in the calibers I use them in, but not to the extent you say when you tried patching the barrel. That "neck sooting" also tells me there was NOT a good sealing in the chamber when firing. I'd anneal the brass and adjust the load slightly up until pressure signs appear. If you are already there, wrong powders for your rifle. But a consistent 9 on a chrony ain't bad in my book no matter what the brass looks like. BTW, I use Butch's Bore Shine that works better than all the others I've tried in years past. Just my thoughts.

 

[ptf18]

Thanks Fellows. Im using Hoppes #9. Hard to imagine that the "black stuff" is bronze but I'll check it out.

THe primers look OK. They are not flattend and I did not have any problems extracting the spent case. No smear marks on the case faces.

Im going to get te cases annealed, wont hurt anything.

 

[CatShooter]

Thanks Fellows. Im using Hoppes #9. Hard to imagine that the "black stuff" is bronze but I'll check it out.

THe primers look OK. They are not flattend and I did not have any problems extracting the spent case. No smear marks on the case faces.

Im going to get te cases annealed, wont hurt anything.

After you have brushed it and patched it, then brush it again, and take that "Black" patch, and put it flat on a paper towel. Pour some #9 over it and look at it in a few hours... it will bleed out to be green.

 

['Freak]

I switched to Bore Tech cleaners, first Eliminator alone and later added their carbon and copper specific products. C4 Carbon Remover gets run through first followed by Cu+2 Copper Remover then any finishing up with Eliminator. The three working together in that sequence gets the job done completely and much quicker than Eliminator alone. Throw in Proof Positive implements and no more pondering over questionable color.

 

[jsthntn247]

I put about 50 300 wm rounds with 80 gr of powder through my Krieger. Cleaned in 3 patches, just the difference b/to the two barrel manufacturers.

 

[amamnn]

1- Depending upon what the "soot" pattern on the neck of the case looks like, it could be a sign that your case necks are not sealing up well which indicates a little pressure is escaping which could be just enough to let the powder burn dirty....a not very likely but possible scenario.

2- Hoppe's and everybody else make a LOT better bore solvent these days, which will show you whether or not you are leaving parts of your brush in the bore by turning green or blue depending upon the solvent and/or the type of bronze alloy used to make the brush. A worn out brush or a rough barrel can snag bits off the brush, but a good brush in a properly lapped barrel is not going to shed much, if any inside the barrel. Sometimes folks will not clean their guns as often as they should (no really?) and they have to brush more often. The new solvents will let you know when enough is enough.

3- The only sure way to know what is going on inside the barrel is to actually look in there. Borescopes are less expensive now than a good quality riflescope, especially the Vision Optics fiber optic flexible borescopes..

4- Tony Boyer's book explains all this and a lot more. I refer to my copy every now and then. There are a lot of other good books on the subject, but I think his covers most everything and in a logical, concise, very readable manner.

 

[Steve Ladino]

Yep CatShooter,
A bronze bristle brush will turn the patch black.

 

[ptf18]

Havent had a chance to get back to the rifle in question but this bronze brush issue has my interest.

I purchased a couple Mosin Nagant rifles over the past years and if I remember correctly had the same "issue". Black as heck patches coming out of bores that appear to be very clean.

I assumed that "hidden" in the mass produced rifling of these rifles was "black" stuff and I spent days cleaning them. Perhaps I switched to a nylon brush and in short order the patches came out with just a touch of grey on them.

 

[Milo 2.0]

It sounds to me like you put the gun away dirty 6 months ago, and didn't clean it before the first powder test. If I'm wrong, tell me. That alone makes thing worse when it comes time to clean. IMHO Hodgdon powders are dirty to start with.
When cleaning a gun, yes I realize you don't want a buildup of any kind, but only the rifling needs to be clean. The more solvent you put in, the more you brush it, you're just taking gunk out of the grooves If a patch comes out with streaks, to me that's OK.

And one guy stated, there's a lot better solvents out there, buy some.

And to the guy that mentioned a certain barrel brand will clean easier, wow, come clean my newest Krieger

I once had a gun chambered where a guy had a range, and loading equipment. Chambered a gun, didn't really clean it, went out a shot about 75 rds. Getting the burnt cutting oil out of the barrel was fun. But it was a 7mm saum, and the barrel gave me 2900 of the most accurate rounds I've ever fired, one setback.

 

[ptf18]

Milo-2. thanks for the reply. I lean toward one that over cleans and double checks bores before shooting so Im 100% certain that the bore was clean... maybe too clean.

I have been trying a "foaming" cleaner but the residue came out as white as it did going in...... Maybe it was telling me something..... that the bore was clean.

Im starting to suspect my bronze brush usage......

Ive borescoped the gun at work with the scopes we have and the bore appeared clean and in good condition.... but Im no expert in reading bore condition.

My concern was why my 1st,2,3, patches came out just filthy black after using both IMR4350 and Varget. I was just pulling patches thru the bore, no brushes until abit later.

Maybe just the nature of the powder although I don't have that problem using Varget in my AR or IMR4350 in my Swede m96s

 

[Milo 2.0]

I kinda want my patches to come out black right away, but I use moly, so my barrels will never be CLEAN.
Using a stainless non coated rod, and wiping it down after each pass on a white paper towel, lets me know when the copper is gone, other than a carbon ring in the throat, that's all I worry about.
Yes, each of us has our own cleaning regimen, who knows who's right. I suppose the best shooter wins

I very seldom brush a bore, if I do, I use nylon, knowing full well a bronze brush can't hurt steel, but in the back of my beady little mind ;D