Hi All, When shooting for a group, is there any opinions as to whether you shoot a fouling shot first or not....I've tried it both ways with mixed results....I realize the mixed results could be my fault as I am getting pretty long in tooth.....
Fouling shot
- Thread starter desertbandit
- Start date
Depends on how clean the bore is,, what's in it at the time (solvents, different powder residue, etc.).
Also, many barrels appreciate stable temps before laying down good grouping. It's common that grouping would suffer if the barrel is changing in temps with every shot in that group.
I do a lot of cold bore testing (for hunting). For this I've dry pre-fouled the bore after last cleaning. That removes fouling from concern. A group here can take me a week, so temperature is not a concern either.
But when I'm hot grouping for load development, I'll let a few loose to get a barrel up to temps before moving over to measured grouping/testing.
Also, many barrels appreciate stable temps before laying down good grouping. It's common that grouping would suffer if the barrel is changing in temps with every shot in that group.
I do a lot of cold bore testing (for hunting). For this I've dry pre-fouled the bore after last cleaning. That removes fouling from concern. A group here can take me a week, so temperature is not a concern either.
But when I'm hot grouping for load development, I'll let a few loose to get a barrel up to temps before moving over to measured grouping/testing.
I write down the barrel condition and track the first 2 shots. Some barrels don't care others barrels are snobs.
I guess it all depends on the discipline you're shooting. My brother and I are very fond of cold bore first round impacts at small targets at 300 meters. We hang golf balls and hitting them on the cold bore is tons of fun !
I guess it all depends on the discipline you're shooting. My brother and I are very fond of cold bore first round impacts at small targets at 300 meters. We hang golf balls and hitting them on the cold bore is tons of fun !
I keep a precise record of all clean and cold barrel shots. It's the only way I know to objectively evaluate your rifle's capability for these shots since every rifle can be different. This is very important to me as a precision hunter since firing "fouling shots" is the field is not possible / practical in a hunting situation.
It's a long story how I discovered the following which I won't repeat here since I've posted it on this site a few times before, but I discovered, at least in my rifles, that aggressive copper removal created clean barrel flyers and it took several shots to "season" the barrel, so it would shoot consistently.
I eliminated both clean barrel flyers and the need to "season" the bore by eliminating the use aggressive copper removing solvents. I now use only Bore Tec C4, carbon remover.
For a technical explanation of this phenomenon, I invite you to watch gunblue490's video on "How to Clean Your Rifle Professionally" and his video on "Cleaning Solvents" then draw your own conclusions. I found other sources that back up his claim. One of the advocates of this approach termed it, "maintaining copper equilibrium / minimum disturbance cleaning."
At first, I didn't believe this at all because it contradicted all the "expert" advice I've ever read in the past that you must remove all the copper or bad things are going to happen. However, I decided to give gunblue490's approach a try and it worked for me. Going on now about 2 years using this method, there is no one more surprised than me!
It's a long story how I discovered the following which I won't repeat here since I've posted it on this site a few times before, but I discovered, at least in my rifles, that aggressive copper removal created clean barrel flyers and it took several shots to "season" the barrel, so it would shoot consistently.
I eliminated both clean barrel flyers and the need to "season" the bore by eliminating the use aggressive copper removing solvents. I now use only Bore Tec C4, carbon remover.
For a technical explanation of this phenomenon, I invite you to watch gunblue490's video on "How to Clean Your Rifle Professionally" and his video on "Cleaning Solvents" then draw your own conclusions. I found other sources that back up his claim. One of the advocates of this approach termed it, "maintaining copper equilibrium / minimum disturbance cleaning."
At first, I didn't believe this at all because it contradicted all the "expert" advice I've ever read in the past that you must remove all the copper or bad things are going to happen. However, I decided to give gunblue490's approach a try and it worked for me. Going on now about 2 years using this method, there is no one more surprised than me!
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
In short range Group Competition, I always clean after every group.
in the next relay, the instant he says, “insert bolts, commence fire”, I put a fouler on the signiter.
Whether I go to the record target immediately depends on the condition.
in the next relay, the instant he says, “insert bolts, commence fire”, I put a fouler on the signiter.
Whether I go to the record target immediately depends on the condition.
If shooting for group, especially on a clean bore, I'd shoot 2 fouling shots, "for paper work " for a serious record.
But no where else, these days ...I wanna know what each barrel does cold bore, fouled, or clean, ...6mm Dasher or 50BMG will be 1st shot cold bore recorded on paper, as part of the group..so I know...
But no where else, these days ...I wanna know what each barrel does cold bore, fouled, or clean, ...6mm Dasher or 50BMG will be 1st shot cold bore recorded on paper, as part of the group..so I know...
Ccrider
Gold $$ Contributor
Every barrel is different and changes with more shots down the barrel. You have got to know how many shots it takes for the barrel you are shooting to settle down after cleaning. Also, the amount of solvent or residue from the cleaner you uses effects the Point of impact after cleaning. Some use graphite after cleaning. I find that it gives me the most consistent first shot if the barrel is clean and dry before application and if I do not leave excessive graphite in the bore.
This is a target I recently shot after thoroughly cleaning an old 3 groove barrel with unknown number of shots. I knew it would take at least 4 shots, maybe as many as seven, for the barrel to settle down. The first 4 shots (bottom target) were all over the place but the 4th shot went where I expected so I was comfortable to go to my target and shoot the 5 shot group. It was a.09 group. I only had 3 pieces of that lot of brass left so I shot the 3 shots into a respectable .010 group. I had 3 pieces of brass from an old lot loaded and shot them next into a .19 group. I am figuring that the vertical came from the old brass, rather than the barrel needing cleaning again because I can get 25-30 shots out of this barrel before losing accuracy and needing to clean again. This older barrel builds up a carbon ring at the neck real fast and coppers faster than my newer barrels.
The only way you will know is by shooting and seeing what it takes for your particular barrel.
This is a target I recently shot after thoroughly cleaning an old 3 groove barrel with unknown number of shots. I knew it would take at least 4 shots, maybe as many as seven, for the barrel to settle down. The first 4 shots (bottom target) were all over the place but the 4th shot went where I expected so I was comfortable to go to my target and shoot the 5 shot group. It was a.09 group. I only had 3 pieces of that lot of brass left so I shot the 3 shots into a respectable .010 group. I had 3 pieces of brass from an old lot loaded and shot them next into a .19 group. I am figuring that the vertical came from the old brass, rather than the barrel needing cleaning again because I can get 25-30 shots out of this barrel before losing accuracy and needing to clean again. This older barrel builds up a carbon ring at the neck real fast and coppers faster than my newer barrels.
The only way you will know is by shooting and seeing what it takes for your particular barrel.
I always thought it depended on the way the bore was finnished. Ive got an old select match shilen on an old 6ppc that will clean out with one shot. Seen production barrels that wouldnt clean out in 5 shots. Doug
As many as it takes for any vertical dispersion to go away and the bullet strikes begin to cluster.
None of my hunting rifles will put the first shot into the group at distance. However, my new 6BR dropped the first 3 rounds into a rather tight group at the 400yd line the other day. I've got to see if that's repeatable.
FWIW - after my rifles bores are cleaned, I just run a few dry patches down the bore before putting the rifles back in the safe. I only run oily patches if I don't expect to shoot the rifle again for some time. This may be why the hunting rifles usually toss a round or two when shot cold bore.
FWIW - after my rifles bores are cleaned, I just run a few dry patches down the bore before putting the rifles back in the safe. I only run oily patches if I don't expect to shoot the rifle again for some time. This may be why the hunting rifles usually toss a round or two when shot cold bore.
In my BR rifles I always fire one fouler.
When I hunted my Weatherby’s were the only rifles I ever owned that the first shot was as dead on as those that may follow. No clue why, and where I hunted a fouler was not really an option and thankfully not needed.
I have no magical cleaning techniques.
When I hunted my Weatherby’s were the only rifles I ever owned that the first shot was as dead on as those that may follow. No clue why, and where I hunted a fouler was not really an option and thankfully not needed.
I have no magical cleaning techniques.
I alway try to pre foul my barrel before match or shooting for groups for testing , does it help or hurt me that’s my call
but that’s what I do because that‘s what I do and it makes me happy
but that’s what I do because that‘s what I do and it makes me happy
I's like to thank all you guys who have responded....I'm not a BR shooter, just an old man that likes to tinker around with different loads....I'm to old (79) to climb the mountains or climb down in the washes in Co. and Wy.......I had this 264 win mag built and been playing around with it....I've been shooting with a clean bore, then with a fouling shot and I can't see any difference in my groups....If I'm having a good day and not to shaky, I get down to 1" to 1-1/8" at 300 yds with clean or fouled barrel shooting 143 gr. eldx's...Again, thank you guys for responding..
Hi, It may even be me....I've shot good and bad groups with and without a fouling shot....I will say, as a rule, my 4th or 5th set of groups are usually better then my first 2 or 3 groups...I usually shoot 5 shot groups...So if that's due to a fouled barrel, then hell, I'd need 10 or more fouling shots....
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