Forming Vartarg, would this work?

[Bat Rastard]

I am contemplating a Vartarg. I am wondering if this would work for forming brass from 223.

1. Buy a cheap (Lee) 221FB sizing die and remove the guts. Run well lubed brass until I have my shoulder in place.
2. Chop saw most of the excess neck.
3. Trim to length
4. Size in a Vartarg die.

 

[L.Sherm]

I am contemplating a Vartarg. I am wondering if this would work for forming brass from 223.

1. Buy a cheap (Lee) 221FB sizing die and remove the guts. Run well lubed brass until I have my shoulder in place.
2. Chop saw most of the excess neck.
3. Trim to length
4. Size in a Vartarg die.

I think your gonna crush the body of the 223 case trying to form the shoulder in 1 step.

 

[TheCZKid]

It wouldn't work. The process I have developed takes about 12-14 total steps, to make my final brass. And, you'll need to anneal the case as a point in the process to getting to final neck outside diameter. And will need to turn the necks as well, as the neck comes from the area in the body of the original case, and is too thick to chamber.

This photo shows the main steps, between the 3rd and 4th sizing I anneal the case, so it'll not form folds or dents, etc in the neck sides or shoulder. After you cut to length you'll need to turn the necks to thin them to about .0120" - 0125" thickness.

 

[L.Sherm]

It wouldn't work. The process I have developed takes about 12-14 total steps, to make my final brass. And, you'll need to anneal the case as a point in the process to getting to final neck outside diameter. And will need to turn the necks as well, as the neck comes from the area in the body of the original case, and is too thick to chamber.

This photo shows the main steps, between the 3rd and 4th sizing I anneal the case, so it'll not form folds or dents, etc in the neck sides or shoulder. After you cut to length you'll need to turn the necks to thin them to about .0120" - 0125" thickness.

View attachment 1632661
I make mine very similar but I use double ended forming dies

 

[JohnW...ski]

I don't see why it wouldn't work, you will probably have to turn the necks. I make .221 Fireball cases from .223 cases in one shot but have to turn the necks. My first wildcat was a .17/223, cases were formed to finish size in one operation and ready to fire.

 

[chuckshooter]

I am contemplating a Vartarg. I am wondering if this would work for forming brass from 223.

1. Buy a cheap (Lee) 221FB sizing die and remove the guts. Run well lubed brass until I have my shoulder in place.
2. Chop saw most of the excess neck.
3. Trim to length
4. Size in a Vartarg die.

I have formed and I reload for 6 vartargs, at one point or another I'm sure, I have tried and the others on this forum have tried, to find a short cut or two in forming vartarg brass, but I feel fairly confident to say, That isn't going to turn out well, but I look forward to hearing about your results.

 

[Bill K]

Don't go cheap. Redding #83101 and also RCBS ( die does not show Part #) make a form and trim die to take 223 Rem down to 221 Rem in one smooth pass.
I use them both to make 221, then trim to length and run them into the 20 VT die prior to loading and forming. Lube the 223 case with Imperial, lightly and they form well, not should dents, etc.

 

[Gabe22BR]

I size my 223-222 brass through my 221FB form die in one pass..

Leaves a long neck, if lubed ( imperial) should make a nice on !!!
Guessing a video would help ??

 

[Gabe22BR]

 

[Gabe22BR]

Then take your Blain Eddy plate and neck it down to 20 cal

Finish in 20VT die-

 

[ASbobcat]

I am contemplating a Vartarg. I am wondering if this would work for forming brass from 223.

1. Buy a cheap (Lee) 221FB sizing die and remove the guts. Run well lubed brass until I have my shoulder in place.
2. Chop saw most of the excess neck.
3. Trim to length
4. Size in a Vartarg die.

I tried all of these 223-20VT conversions many years ago and I assure no method is worth the time and effort. You end up with a very thick and HARD neck, because the 223 brass gradually gets harder as well as thicker toward the head. If you don't turn the resulting necks, you end up with VERY thick necks that create a huge pressure spike to release the bullet. You will also damage the ogive of your bullets trying to stuff them into the case. Neck turning is a very laborious task.
If you try to fix this by annealing. remember that you are working very close to the case head on this short body. I ruined a lot of cases softening the case head too much. If you buy brass that has been already been converted, you will still have all of these problems.

There is absolutely no reason to convert 223 to 20VT when you have multiple sources of good 222 brass available that will give you more load flexibility and similar performance when loaded with light 40gr bullets. 222 with 40gr bullets is the easy button. And there are lots of good .224/40gr bullets available.

"A reasonable man learns from his own mistakes. A wise man learns from someone else's mistakes."

 

[TheCZKid]

Here's an earlier thread on making 20 VT brass might be of interest, detailed steps.

20 vartarg brass

I have some rem 221 fireball brass, but not enough. Factory brass is scarce and expensive when you do find it. I would like to have around 500 cases and am willing to make it. I am set up to neck turn and anneal

forum.accurateshooter.com

 

[Rick300]

I tried all of these 223-20VT conversions many years ago and I assure no method is worth the time and effort. You end up with a very thick and HARD neck, because the 223 brass gradually gets harder as well as thicker toward the head. If you don't turn the resulting necks, you end up with VERY thick necks that create a huge pressure spike to release the bullet. You will also damage the ogive of your bullets trying to stuff them into the case. Neck turning is a very laborious task.
If you try to fix this by annealing. remember that you are working very close to the case head on this short body. I ruined a lot of cases softening the case head too much. If you buy brass that has been already been converted, you will still have all of these problems.

There is absolutely no reason to convert 223 to 20VT when you have multiple sources of good 222 brass available that will give you more load flexibility and similar performance when loaded with light 40gr bullets. 222 with 40gr bullets is the easy button. And there are lots of good .224/40gr bullets available.

"A reasonable man learns from his own mistakes. A wise man learns from someone else's mistakes."

Have you actually done it? I have made over 2,000 Vartarg cases from 223 and have had absolutely zero problems. The only problem cases I have were bought from a well known brass company that said they were made from once fired LC. They must have been fired in a machine gun because the dimensions are all over the place and several have split at the .200 line. My favorite are made from new Starline .223

 

[L.Sherm]

Have you actually done it? I have made over 2,000 Vartarg cases from 223 and have had absolutely zero problems.

My guess is ive made probably same amount or close to it with maybe losing a couple but that was user error

 

[Rick300]

My guess is ive made probably same amount or close to it with maybe losing a couple but that was user error

I'm using a Bulberry forming die and it works beautifully. A lot of steps so it becomes a winter project.

 

[ricco1949]

I tried all of these 223-20VT conversions many years ago and I assure no method is worth the time and effort. You end up with a very thick and HARD neck, because the 223 brass gradually gets harder as well as thicker toward the head. If you don't turn the resulting necks, you end up with VERY thick necks that create a huge pressure spike to release the bullet. You will also damage the ogive of your bullets trying to stuff them into the case. Neck turning is a very laborious task.
If you try to fix this by annealing. remember that you are working very close to the case head on this short body. I ruined a lot of cases softening the case head too much. If you buy brass that has been already been converted, you will still have all of these problems.

There is absolutely no reason to convert 223 to 20VT when you have multiple sources of good 222 brass available that will give you more load flexibility and similar performance when loaded with light 40gr bullets. 222 with 40gr bullets is the easy button. And there are lots of good .224/40gr bullets available.

"A reasonable man learns from his own mistakes. A wise man learns from someone else's mistakes."

I have made nearly 20K of turned and annealed VT brass from LC over the years.

One of my clients has fired 75K-100K in total firings on 5000 pieces of brass while PDn.

He reports that he has 15-20 firings on many of the brass. After 15 firings he was losing 1-3 per 100 due to split necks. However he was only annealing every 5-10 firings. Now that he has an Ugly annealer he is annealing more often and has even less losses after 15x firings.

IMO that's excellent longevity.

 

[ASbobcat]

Have you actually done it? I have made over 2,000 Vartarg cases from 223 and have had absolutely zero problems. The only problem cases I have were bought from a well known brass company that said they were made from once fired LC. They must have been fired in a machine gun because the dimensions are all over the place and several have split at the .200 line. My favorite are made from new Starline .223

You obviously didn't read my first sentence.

It's a great project if you are a masochist.

 

[L.Sherm]

I'm using a Bulberry forming die and it works beautifully. A lot of steps so it becomes a winter project.

That is exactly what I use bought 3 double ended ones 20 years ago originally to make 17 Pee wee bras from 30 Carbine brass

 

[L.Sherm]

It's a great project if you are a masochist.

I guess every wildcatter is, WTH?

 

[TheCZKid]

Initially it was the big challenge to figure it out how to do it. Over time, I've ended up making about 4,000 for myself and some to sell, to fund my shooting. We have a long winter here, and the prize in spring is sage rat shooting, right Rick?

Like anything reloading, it takes consistent detailed attention. But if someone can find, and afford to buy, a bunch of 221 Rem Fireball brass and neck it down, then that's the easy way to get 20VT brass, and you're done. I must be a masochist!