Forged or Investment Cast - Does it Matter in Guns?

[Phil3]

I don't know if my Howa action is investment cast or not, with some saying it is and others saying it is not. "Cast" always conjures up images of cheap weak parts, but that does not appear to be the case nowadays. Ruger, Dan Wesson, and maybe Howa use it. I read that the I think Farley makes some actions that are cast. I read that the military chose the Investment cast Remington 700 receiver as it's Sniper bolt gun base for both M-40 and M-24. Can't vouch for that, but given investment casting is used for aircraft parts, including jet turbine blades, it must have something going for it. Would you buy an action if known to be investment cast?

Phil

 

[M-61]

"CAST," unfortunately carries a connotation of weakness or cheap." Forged " sounds stronger. Neither is true in general use but only in specific applications.

 

[Raythemanroe]

Isn't Farley or they were!

 

[Eddie Harren]

Farley was, then wasn't, then was. Rugers have always been cast and are renowned for their strength. Remington has always been forged. The old Shilen "DGA" was cast.

 

[Larryh128]

The advantage of investment casting is that the part is finished. The disadvantage is that is is very costly initially. If all of the standard procedures are followed, there is nothing wrong with investment castings. Is it possible to get a bad one? Yes, it's also possible to get a bad forging. I wouldn't hesitate to use an investment casting, there are people who would disagree but they would probably be shocked to learn how many castings they trust their lives to on a daily basis.

 

[M-61]

The advantage of investment casting is that the part is finished. The disadvantage is that is is very costly initially. If all of the standard procedures are followed, there is nothing wrong with investment castings. Is it possible to get a bad one? Yes, it's also possible to get a bad forging. I wouldn't hesitate to use an investment casting, there are people who would disagree but they would probably be shocked to learn how many castings they trust their lives to on a daily basis.

+1....last sentence is an eye opener for those who look into it

 

[Hopkins]

Even Ruger who has championed casting for firearms receivers isn't trying to sell cast 1911 receivers.

 

[butchlambert]

Hopkins,
Source of your info? Not doubting you, but if I worried about a casting, I would be more afraid of a cast rifle receiver than a semi automatic pistol receiver.

 

[Hombre0321]

You know even a Forged Action was cast at some point. They are not going out and digging up a big ole hunk of steele and forging from that point, it was cast in a foundry once apon a time no matter the finished product.

RS

 

[Hopkins]

I am incorrect politically and otherwise. They are casting the frame of the 1911. At least the slide isn't.

 

[Barlow]

I'm no metallurgist, but I know there is cast iron, and cast steel. Cast steel is much stronger and can be easily welded. Barlow

 

[Hopkins]

Cast knife blades are not too well accepted.

 

[Eddie Harren]

"Cast knife blades are not too well accepted"

Comparing apples to grapefruit.

 

[gpoldblue]

I used to have a Ruger No.1 in .300 Win mag that was a beautiful rifle on the outside(polished,blued,etc). I removed the buttstock 1 day and the inside of the receiver looked like a cinder block...U G L Y ! ! ! The rifle shot ok and was safe enough,but that vision has stuck with me ever since. I was expecting as good on the inside as it was on the outside,especially for the money you pay for a No.1. Have never had another Ruger No.1......Very disappointed.

 

[Lazydays]

I don't know if my Howa action is investment cast or not, with some saying it is and others saying it is not. "Cast" always conjures up images of cheap weak parts, but that does not appear to be the case nowadays. Ruger, Dan Wesson, and maybe Howa use it. I read that the I think Farley makes some actions that are cast. I read that the military chose the Investment cast Remington 700 receiver as it's Sniper bolt gun base for both M-40 and M-24. Can't vouch for that, but given investment casting is used for aircraft parts, including jet turbine blades, it must have something going for it. Would you buy an action if known to be investment cast?

Phil

Phil,
first of all a Dan Wesson is not an investment casting, and never have been. They use powderd metal technology which is a different animal. That technology has seriously came a long way over the last fifty years, and is well known for being very precise.

I have one Howa (a Vanguard), and it looks more like a forging to me. But maybe I'm wrong. Anyway a forging is always going to be stronger than a casting assuming they use similar metals and are the same cross sections. But castings are cheaper, and their technology has came a long way over the last fifty years. It's now possible to do castings that have about .060" of extra metal on them, verses a quarter inch thirty years ago! Plus with spin cast technology the granular structure is much denser. Castings as a rule are also cheaper. A forging will flex a little bit before reaching it's yield point, where a casting is usually a little more rigid , but not quit as strong. A casting works well under compressive stress, where as a forging will work just fine in all aps.

I worked for the company that first used the lost wax technology in precision castings. It was actually developed by a husband and wife just prior to WWII, and we bought the technology and everything else lock stock & barrel. Then after the war we sold it back to them for one dollar. That of course would be the Allison V1710 aircraft engine. Later we were the first to try it in gas turbine blades, and trust me the explosions shook the whole building But we figured it out. Gas turbine blades are not under a serious stress other than from heat and centrifical force. Plus the very idea of using steel in them died in 1942. Now they are done in Hestalloy, Waspalloy, and a couple more secretive alloys and something totally different. The actually make up of the alloys has a lot to do with how they survive, and they are closely guarded. (very closely guarded I might say)
gary

 

[Lazydays]

"CAST," unfortunately carries a connotation of weakness or cheap." Forged " sounds stronger. Neither is true in general use but only in specific applications.

As I said a casting can be more rigid (less flex), and also is lighter in weight (compairable cross sections). The best precision machinery use cast frames rather than steel for rigidity alone.
gary

 

[Lazydays]

You know even a Forged Action was cast at some point. They are not going out and digging up a big ole hunk of steele and forging from that point, it was cast in a foundry once apon a time no matter the finished product.

RS

every piece of metal starts out as a cast ingot, but is redone several times to change the granular structure and even add compounds from time to time. A fine example would be a piece of 4350 steel. It started out as an iron ingot, and then was remelted and other elements added. Then was heated up again and formed into what we call hot rolled steel. From there it's often heat treated again to give what the trade calls "pre-treat steel", or what we know as steel that comes in at about 28rc-32rc.
gary

 

[Lazydays]

I'm no metallurgist, but I know there is cast iron, and cast steel. Cast steel is much stronger and can be easily welded. Barlow

Over the last forty years we've learned to weld cast iron and cast steel very well. Cast steel is easier to weld, but you can get some nice rods these days for cast iron. Each has it's pluses and minuses.
gary

 

[Lazydays]

"Cast knife blades are not too well accepted"

Comparing apples to grapefruit.

if you could afford one, they can make a cast knife blade that will do anything well.
gary

 

[Hopkins]

I have some ceramic blades that are fantastic. No doubt casting can be modified and perfected to mimic or equal forgings in a lot of instances. The general consensus is that a cast M1A receiver from Springfield Armory is inferior to a forged TRW M14 receiver from the 1960's.