Fli-Right Concentricity gauge (pictures)

[Grimstod]

Does runout matter when you are using a tight necked chamber? Yes it does.

So I started my first wildcat ever and at first I used some Lee dies. They were terrible though. Sometimes runout was so bad I could see it with the naked eye. Tried chucking them up in a lathe and truing them up and that did help a little but still runout was almost consistently .010 or more. Groups were bad to. Best I could manage was .77moa and that was the only group I ever shot that was small, the rest were embarrassing. Something else I noticed was that when there was a lot o runout, the bolt would close really hard because the chamber had to essentially straighten it to get it in. Not a very good feeling for your confidence levels. I chambered a few and the removed them, and sure enough there were lots of deep scratches on one side of the bullet as it was jammed into the chamber crooked.

Next I purchased some much nicer Redding dies. Runout was way less. Like .002 in the worst cases. Groups shrank a lot. Now down to .411 consistently. I was able to shoot two five shot groups in a row that measured that small. For me that is great considering I am working of a military action and not a modern custom rig.

So my conclusion is that runout does in fact matter. If your jamming in crooked bullet don't expect match winning results.

Next I got one of these fli-right concentricity gauges from http://premieraccuracy.com/video-2015.html. There is a lot about this gauge that I like. I will try to do a video of myself using it soon. What I love about it is that it does not ruin neck tension because you shock it rather then bend the neck. Using it is really easy to. Even though the new Redding dies put out some great results, every once in a while you get a bad on, and instead of having a flyer to ruin a good group I can now detect them and even fix them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFTya86Ax18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv72gRX0XBM

 

[mikecr]

Re: Fli-Right Concentricity gauge

I think you're onto the reason so many are sure big neck clearances are better for accuracy. Basically, they don't make straight enough ammo..
And with that, neck-bender/neck-shocker, that isn't making straight ammo.
Pointing the bullet itself in one direction or another doesn't account for for the rest of the case.
If you're loaded ammo doesn't measure low in runout from a standard v-block gauge, your ammo is not straight, and will not chamber/fire without tension points(with rubbing like you've seen).

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Re: Fli-Right Concentricity gauge

Does runout matter when you are using a tight necked chamber? Yes it does. No it doesnt. Size your case and the bullet will center in the freebore.

So I started my first wildcat ever and at first I used some Lee dies. They were terrible though. Sometimes runout was so bad I could see it with the naked eye. Tried chucking them up in a lathe and truing them up and that did help a little but still runout was almost consistently .010 or more. Groups were bad to. Best I could manage was .77moa and that was the only group I ever shot that was small, the rest were embarrassing. Something else I noticed was that when there was a lot o runout, the bolt would close really hard because the chamber had to essentially straighten it to get it in. Not a very good feeling for your confidence levels. I chambered a few and the removed them, and sure enough there were lots of deep scratches on one side of the bullet as it was jammed into the chamber crooked.

Next I purchased some much nicer Redding dies. Runout was way less. Like .002 in the worst cases. Groups shrank a lot. Now down to .411 consistently. I was able to shoot two five shot groups in a row that measured that small. For me that is great considering I am working of a military action and not a modern custom rig.

So my conclusion is that runout does in fact matter. If your jamming in crooked bullet don't expect match winning results.

Next I got one of these fli-right concentricity gauges from http://premieraccuracy.com/video-2015.html. There is a lot about this gauge that I like. I will try to do a video of myself using it soon. What I love about it is that it does not ruin neck tension because you shock it rather then bend the neck. Using it is really easy to. Even though the new Redding dies put out some great results, every once in a while you get a bad on, and instead of having a flyer to ruin a good group I can now detect them and even fix them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFTya86Ax18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv72gRX0XBM

 

[Grimstod]

Re: Fli-Right Concentricity gauge

zfast that is going to create a boat load of other accuracy problems. Further more what your are suggesting would only work if the bullet is jammed into the lands to center it. However you will get lots of problems with closing the bolt, as I mentioned in my post, if you read it. Bullets that have bad runout out must be forced into the lands crooked distorting the bullet as it scrapes the inside of the neck.

 

[Grimstod]

Re: Fli-Right Concentricity gauge

Here is a quick example, I took this photo right before going to work. It shows the scrape marks that the bullet gets as it drags against the neck of the chamber neck and free bore. Can anyone say this is a good thing? I would hope not. Load your bullets straight and check them with a good concentricity gauge.

 

[Grimstod]

Re: Fli-Right Concentricity gauge

These are with less then .002 of runout.

This was not the best group with the bullet loaded with a lot of runout but the better ones were not that much better.
Best I managed was .77 moa at 100 yards with Bullets that had more then .012 of runout.

 

[mikecr]

Re: Fli-Right Concentricity gauge

I agree with you Grimstod. The straightness measure via V-Block is represented with this pic, but with the indicator arm resting on the bullet.

 

[Grimstod]

Thanks Mike for that picture though I was just measuring brass runnout. Probably should have put an empty case in there to avoid confusion.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Totally irrelevent. I have tested it at 1k. Tom broke the HG IBS 10 match agg record with rounds with up to .005" run out. There is only about .0002 of clearence around the bullet in the throat. If you full length size the bullet will center up. The only way concentricity may matter is if you still neck size. Dont theorise, test.

 

[Grimstod]

Would you care to post some tests? Maybe some data or some links? I am testing this out and with the radical difference I am seeing in my targets that I posted above I am seeing a big difference. I really like the Fli-Right Concentricy gauge. More data is always better. If you do not like to make straight ammo then you probably do you take pride in your work? Is not this place called Accurate Shooter, and that requires obsession with perfection. Crooked ammo to me is not perfection.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

The data consists of groups in ladder form shot at 1k. There is no correlation between runout and group size. I am just passing along info I have found to be true to save you all some hassle. There are a million things to fuss over eventually it will burn you out, so fuss over the things that matter. If you use a bushing die you will have runout. But to test these kind of things you really need a very accurate platform. If the gun wont shoot .1s or .2s its kind of hard to do a valid test.

Edit, I just reread you post and see you were getting over .010" runout, thats quite horrendous. I can see correcting that helping. my testing never exceeded .004-.005" I dont know that I ever had a die that bad.

 

[Grimstod]

I did some more loading this last weekend. It has always troubled me that I always get one or two flyers in every group I shoot. Now that I am checking every bullet with this Fli-Right I see that most have less then .003 of runnout but ever 4 or five rds I get one that is .012 and one was a whopping .023 out. I fixed them all with the Fli-Right and will see next time I go to the range if it eliminates those flyers.

 

[JRS]

Wouldn't it be much simpler to invest in well made, properly fitted dies? Whether you are "shocking" the neck, or the bullet, you are affecting the grip on that bullet, and probably pushing the neck from a round configuration to something other than round! Is it possible your "flyers" are the result of your inconsistency behind the trigger/the wind?

 

[Ggmac]

It appears by your set up you are not going back far enough to eliminate bolt face not being 90 deg to case base . You didn't mention if you turn necks to be sure one side is not thicker than the other ?

 

[JRS]

It appears by your set up you are not going back far enough to eliminate bolt face not being 90 deg to case base . You didn't mention if you turn necks to be sure one side is not thicker than the other ?

Looking at the close-up pics of the cartridge, it's quite clear the necks have not been turned. Good question The brass is also Winchester head stamped. Not the most dimensionally consistent brass on the market

 

[Dusty Stevens]

That big scrape on the side of that bullet is from the ejector being strong and thats where it rubs coming out. If that was from a chamber you need to fire the gunsmith

 

[Ggmac]

I think he's big into Mosin nagants , if so the ejector isn't a rem/savage style ,but the extractor is offset and snaps over the rim after hitting resistance , which would tilt the cartridge going in . Or he's feeding it thru the magazine .

 

[Grimstod]

This is Lapua brass. I do not neck turn. Thats something I have yet to get the tools for.
This is a Mosin so it isnt the extractor like dusty Sevens said.
As for dies these are redding dies. I have a die set on the way. Well we are waiting for PTG to make the reamer for the die. Its taking forever. 9months so far or maybe its been 10 now. Not happy about that. The Redding does work a lot better then the Lee dies that I was originally using with this wildcat. Will never buy Lee anything again. Lol. Was consistently getting .012 or more of runnout.
Not sure what the post about bolt head being exactly 90d. The action has been trued up and all the critical serfaces are perfectly parallel down to the .0001

 

[Grimstod]

That was just a factory bullet I had, I reload only with Lapua I just love Lapua brass, tried some Winchester and Rem and PPU but hated them, there were awful. The Lapua is just wonderful stuff and it is so much cheaper. By the way when I say cheaper I mean that per reload, you get three times as many reloads with Lapua, the Lapua pays off big.

 

[Ggmac]

I'm tryig. Help . If you think your extractor doesn't push the cartridge , it's the first thing that does then it snaps over the rim , I've done a few of these on a dare , next is the Carcano . Do you feed from the mag? Trying , checking runout , even on Lap brass , while not making sure each side of the neck is the same is like taking a shower with your clothes on ! If one side is thicker and the bullet is centered , what are you doing by making it straight ?