First post: searching for the most accurate handloads

[Ghengisahn175]

Fellow forum members,

My name is James and I was suggested to come to this site from Snipershide in regards to accurate handloading. To introduce myself, I'm an active duty Soldier who picked up long range precision as a hobby. I would consider myself a tactical style shooter but I started learning from benchrest shooters.

Before we go further, here is my loadout:
Rifle #1: accuracy international chambered in 260 remington
Rifle #2: surgeon action on AX chassis in 300 WM
scope: bushnell XRS w/ tremor 2 reticle

The reason I came to this site in search for answers is purely in regards to handloads. I tried several google searches but I get bits and pieces of "opinions" and figured i'd best get the "hive answers" here.

Couldn't post photos of groups but the 300WM is shooting around .5" excluding bullet diameter and the 260 remington is shooting .3" . Chrono data is as follows:

300WM: high - 2929 , low - 2900, ES: 29.7, SD: 9.8 (10 rounds)
load info: remington RP brass, 70.0 grains IMR 4831, 208 AMAX, federal 210 match primers

260 remington: high: 2788, low -2759. ES: 28.8, SD: 9.2 (10 rounds)
load info: lapua brass, 42.0 grains of H4350, berger 140 hybrids, CCI BR2 primers

I have been reading Erik Cortina's 100+ page post about handloads and found much valuable information but again it differs from what I've heard. As I have said I learned reloading and shooting with benchrest shooters but I shoot off a bipod/rear bag/monopod. And I am currently obsessed with 1 hole groups and lowering my ES/SD as much as possible. My best group at 1000 yards was a 7.5" horizontal and a 5.5" vertical spread (with the 260, haven't done so yet with 300WM).

Here is my reloading regimen starting from fired brass.
universally deprime, SS tumble, lube, FL resize and bump shoulders back 2 thousandths w/ neck size, tumble without pins to get lube off, trim (if need to), chamfer, deburr, prime, throw charge, seat bullet. (I have uniformed all primer pockets one time recently some were of different depths).
As far as throwing charges I'm using an RCBS 5-0-5 scale. I zero it out, load up to 10 rounds, check zero (if its off I rezero but I noticed if I don't let the handle slam down it wont throw its zero off).

Here is what I DO NOT DO: bullet WEIGHT* sorting (told its a waste of time finding a lemon)
-brass WEIGHT* sorting (again waste of time from general consensus, just make sure headstamps are same ie LC to LC, hornady, lapua, etc).
-annealing (dont have the tools and was told shooters havent done it before and shoot well without it).
-neck turning (don't have the tools and understanding)
-concentricity check: don't have the tool.. (yet).

Now here is where I am confused on some train of thoughts:
1. Seat depth vs bearing surface. When it comes to lowering ES/SD do you get more uniformity from seating depth being very close to each other or bearing surfaces? Seat depth is based on cartridge base to ogive (CBTO) and my idea of bearing surface from what I have read is the "bourlette" portion of the bullet which is against the rifling of the barrel and traps gas. Some do one, some do both, but is there a definitive study on which is better for accuracy and consistency?

2. For my 300WM thats the best 5 shot group ive gotten out of the rifle so far but I want 1 ragged holes and an es/sd lower than what I have. What else should I be doing to tighten up my shot group?

3. Erik's post about "if it doesn't group well at 100 it wont group well further out". This actually makes the most sense to me as I cannot understand how something cannot stabiize at 100 yards but 'is supposed to' out further. I'm not a rocket scientist but I work with munitions and artillery at way bigger levels than bullets and I just can't understand the idea behind a bullet taking time to stabilize past the barrel. With that being said, if I'm searching for an ultra accurate consistent handload, should I be shooting at distance to 'mangify' issues that are not readily seen at 100 yards?

On the upside, I had 7 300WM casings and I loaded them up the same but with BR2 primers (and a more uniformed seat depth) and uniformed primer pocket depth and my ES was 20.8 , SD was 7.9 (although I shot myself in the foot adding three variables instead of one). What I mean by uniformed seat depth is that I noticed the one that shot the 5 round group in the photo above were off by a couple thousandths from each other whereas the 7 here with good chrono #'s were off by 1.5 thousandths from each other. Not sure which made more of a difference..

anyhow looking forward to hearing what your guys' thoughts are. In the end I know what I'm currently shooting (for a non benchrest shooter) is pretty good but the OCD in me wants to reload and produce bench rest worthy ammunition. Thank you guys for your time.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

Hi James-

Welcome to the forum.

From my own personal experience, the most bang I get for the effort I put into it in achieving the lowest possible E.S./S.D. in order:

• powder (pretty obvious, right?) - I weight down to a single kernel. With your scale, if it has not been tuned already, I would recommend contacting Scott Parker and sending it to him for tuning. He can tune it in so that it will reliably and accurately read to a single kernel of powder. Being ultra-consistent here has been the biggest gain for me.
  
• 
  brass prep/neck tension: I prep all my brass the same way, every time. I mandrel (expand) the necks before loading, to make sure they all start from the same point. I chamfer the case mouth, inside & out. I uniform the primer pocket so that all my primers seat to the same depth.
  
• 
  primer selection: if I am not happy with my E.S., I run a primer test, with 3 or 4 different types of primers. There can be quite a variance here, so it's a good thing to check if you are having E.S. issues, IMO.
  
• 
  seating depth: This is more accuracy related than E.S. related, but consistent seating depth (I shoot for <.001" total variance) counts for a lot.
  

If you pop down into the Ballistics Forum, I believe Bryan Litz talking in one of the early threads about the "settles down" phenomenon and the "theory" that some bullets shoot better at longer ranges because they "stabilize". He explains it way better than I can.

As for annealing - I anneal after every firing because I believe that it leads to consistency, which is the key to what you are looking to do. Each firing works your brass and I think you have to "reset" each time with the same process to be ultra-consistent. That's just me though, some guys will have a different process that works for them.

 

[ireload2]

Keep working with your current equipment but start planning for new barrels for your rifles or for new rifles if you are serious about this.

Investigate the chamber and throat combinations used by the benchresters meaning tight necked minimum body chambers in premium grade barrels. Do not over look the best twists for the bullet weights you like to use. Find the very best gunsmith to put your new stuff together when the time comes.

I would recommed that weighing cases will help you understand how good your brass is. I don't mean every piece has to be identical. Just weigh the cases and graph the data. Use a bin size of .2 or .5 grains and look at your distribution. You may notice you have a few very heavy and a vew very light cases. Get those out of the group shooting population.
If you start with say 300 to 500 prepped cases you can cull out the heavy and light cases into seperate groups. Then use the heavy cases for load development and for shooting groups without mixing with the rest of your brass. The light cases can be used as a smaller unmixed lot or for spares.
If you do not really need the heavy and light cases, just keep the central distribution of your brass - all the cases almost having the same weight. Then sell the light batch and the heavy batch and say good riddance. Some hunter will be happy to shoot them.

Look up and read the article on shooting in the Houston Warehouse.
Preparation of your brass will be very important if you head toward tiny one hole groups.
Make sure you use the very best seating die you can afford. Play around with the Wilson and similar dies used by benchresters.

Finally you might consider getting a learning machine - a 6ppc benchrest rifle and take it to a lot of benchrest matches. The better the machine you start with the more it will magnify your errors. You know it has to be something you did because the rifle didn't do it.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

I'll disagree with some of the assumptions you've derived from the internet. There is a lot of dis-information out there just waiting to bite one in the back side.

First, weigh the darn cases! I shoot F-class. I made high master at mid-range with a Savage hunting action with a good barrel in 308 shooting 155 grain bullets. I was on a tight budget, so I learned a lot about how to reload for precision without the bells and whistles. The first thing that reduced my ES and vertical on target was weighing the cases and shooting them in groups based on weight. Some will say that it is worthless. Well, those same people might tell you that it is impossible to shoot well with cheap brass like Winchester.

Second, forget the ES and SD until two things happen:

1) Consistent, and I mean no called flyers or oops shots, of less than .5 MOA for 5 shots. By consistent, I mean every group you shoot. If it won't do that, you have a rifle problem, load problem, or shooter problem - go fix it.

2) Shoot the rifle at long range (I mean 800+ yards) on paper and plot the vertical. Now, do it again while shooting with the chrono. Do the POI and velocity coincide? If not, get rid of chrono - it isn't helping you.

Now, if you've satisfied the above, you can safely start chasing the velocity without chasing your tail.

If you do need to look at the velocity as a problem, start with easy things - consistent neck tension, seating depth, powder charge in a real node, the right powder (derived through experimentation), and the right primers.

Things that never made a difference:
Primer pockets - even them if it makes you feel good. I use an RCBS seating tool and don't measure depth. My loads aren't what keeps me from winning if you know what I mean.
Donuts - Who doesn't like donuts? Only folks that are trying to get too much bullet in the neck.
Worrying about stuff - I mean concentricity (I don't measure but one round per batch), fretting over getting the brass super-shiny clean, and measuring seating depth to the .000000-who gives a rip...

Do yourself a huge favor and buy, borrow, or check out from a library somewhere Tony Boyer's book.

Load development is about finding a super accurate load that is forgiving. We all have the ability to get things so precise that it works really really well until the conditions change...

 

['Freak]

Uniform the primer pockets and then after each firing, use the same tool for cleaning the pockets. De-burr the flash hole using one of the tools that’ll also cut it a uniform chamfer about the opening to inside the case.

 

[357Mag]

Gheng -

Howdy !

If you learned short-range BR practices, then... you probably learned to load @ the range.
My question is..... are you loading @ the range, sometimes when you don't really need to ?

The thought being: are you using a powder that is less sensitive to temp changes than others are ?
Powders like 4350, Varget, IMR8208 and the newer IMR's like IMR 4166 & 4451 ?

And along those lines ...... do you know where your " cold bore " shots will land ?

Don't " chase " the load, if you don't need do.

Just thinkin....



With regards,
357Mag

 

[barefooter56]

Ghengisahn175,
From what you are describing as far as accuracy you are already achieving with both rifles it looks like what you are doing WORKS FOR YOU!!! Many shooters try to "fix" what isn't broke at the loading bench and get lost in the weeds when actually they just need to get out and sharpen their wind reading, position, Always find your natural point of aim before beginning your string of fire etc. Having said that . If you see any of the above suggestions in the previous answers to your question. By all means give them a try ! If I may suggest some reading. Bryan Litz's books " Accuracy and precision for long range shooters" and Modern advancements in Long range shooting are two very good sources of information along with Nancy Tompkins book
"Prone and Long-range shooting". You may find Mid Tompkins loading chapter very interesting. Tony Boyers book as mentioned before is also a good read as is Glen Zediker's "Handloading for competition". Suggest you read all or some of these books before you try anything else. Welcome aboard!
PS If you are in the Army and stationed down around FT.Benning. Check out the AMU guys for help on wind reading and position

 

[Ghengisahn175]

Thanks for the replies fellas. Two things stick out to me so far from replies:

1: case weighing. Might have to start doing so but the only way I can measure grains is on my 5-0-5. This will be interesting...

2: neck tension: I don't have an expander mandrel I just use my sizing die's
Expander ball to do the work. For my 300WM I notice a bit more various neck tensions (using the type S die with bushing) when I seat the bullets (some are easier/harder than others but light margins nothing drastic).
On my 260 I have Neil jones dies and it seems a bit more uniform on seating but I think I feel the donut effect on some of my rounds where it'll seat then at w certain point get easier.

As far as literature I haven't been saving funds appropriately for them as I end up buying more components... Need to get to Litz' book.

All in all great tips fellas will continue to read and tinker around.