First 500 yard group. Help analyse target

[oldhoward]

Hi, A little help please? This is my target from a 500 yard shoot this past weekend. I am looking for suggestion on how to tighten the groups up. These were shot with a very basic(read cheap) Savage action with a Shilen 8 twist barrel 26 inches long in 6mmbr purchased from Midway. Optics were a 6x24 power Bushnell scope. The environment was a white plastic table from (Sams’s or Costco) with a front bag that didn’t fit the rifle I had to hold the fore end in place. Load was 105 Berger VLD, 30.0 grains of Varget, and CCI benchrest primers, Lapua brass(new) as it came from the box. Bullets were seated to the lands and it was the first experience with these bullets. Wind was blowing from the target to the shooter from about the 10:30 to 11:00 position, there were no wind flags, wind was about 8 mph gusting to about 12 mph? (medium size flags straight out).
I can’t tell which order the bullets impacted in as I could not see the bullet holes. I know I pulled one shot. What I would like to know is the vertical spread caused by the wind? Or can anyone read the target and tell what I did wrong? I realize this is not the best set up possible but it was the first time I was able to shoot on paper at this range(500 yards). Oh one more thing with 80 grain Burgers at 100 yards the rifle will shoot in the 3’s and 4’s if I do my part on a calm day.
Thanks

 

[coyoteklr]

i'm no bench rest shooter, but common sense would tell me the table might just be a problem.... the next thing might be the front rest..... a bag of oats would be better.... and the three legged stool might be another.....just use a stump....
if all your looking for is an atta-boy on your target you got one........

 

[oldhoward]

Hi, I wasn't looking for an attaboy, but I do appreciate any comments given. I thought the vertical might have been wind or perhaps velocity spread and was hoping some one with more experience would be able to tell by reading the target and I provided as much information as possibleto assist in the analysis. I was disapointed in the group size and was trying to think of how to fix it. I do apologize if folks thought I was looking for something more or trying to make excuses.
Thanks.

 

[normmatzen]

1. I wouldn't denigrate ANY Savage action! Especially with the barrel you have ( I have a Shilen on my Savage PTA too!)
2. That isn't really a bad group for a new, un-tweaked load.
3. Just wait till you finalize the powder load and bullet set-back! ( I believe your bullets like a set back.)

 

[Heavies]

That's not too bad for 500. I don't think the vert is wind.

I think you are just out of a node. Perhaps a little more or less powder, or seat depth change? I'd try the Berger's recommended seat depth test on their web site. Then work up the load in fire formed brass.

Whoops Norm already said it.

 

[brxbrad]

Looks to me like you might have put the cart before the horse. It's been my experience that the 105's take some time to tweek. If you plan on shooting the 105's, I suggest backing down to 200 yrds, turning your necks, find a load that shoots the tightest group with bullets touching the lands, then start fine tuning the bullets. This is done best by starting at .010 into the lands then moving .010 at a time out up to .050 off the lands. You will find the sweet spot for the 105's somewhere in there. I shoot a BRX with a Savage 110 action, Varget, 105 VLD's, and Russian SRM primers. The sweet spot for my gun was .030 off the lands. If you want to shorten the process, try the 107MKs. They are a forgiving bullet and typically like a .010 jump.

Good Luck

 

[oldhoward]

Thank you everyone for your comments and advice I appreciate your efforts. I have already loaded up another set of Bergers using there test method. I only have access to a 100 yard range locally so I will try them at 100. I may try neck turning when I get a turning device, but will I need new dies to compensate for the reduction in neck size?
Thanks Everyone.

 

[Exercion]

I'm not an expert on this by any stretch, but I'll chime in.
1. I'd beg, borrow, or steal a sturdy rest, with a front bag that fits the stock and try it without changing anything yet. Shoot it from the ground F-class style if you must (or prefer), but get it as stable as you can, and off that table.
2. If you haven't done it yet I'd shoot from that rest over a good chronograph to see what your velocity is, seeing as how different bullets have different speeds where they work well, and each barrel gives a different velocity. Then you have a baseline to work from.
3. Unless you're forced to neck turn, I'd wait. Use a tubing mic to check your brass, my guess is that the factory Lapua will be pretty good, it certainly is in my 6BR.
4. Unsure what dies you're running, but a 6BR deserves the best (which can start arguments too LOL). I use the Redding Competition dies with bushings and no expander ball. I am with brxbrad about the Wolf primers.

Eric

 

[gambleone]

oldhoward,
I wouldn't worry about neck turning just yet. Like Heavies stated, that's
not bad for 500 on the 1st time. The 105 vld's are sometimes very, TOUGH
to tune in. I went to 108 Bergers & saw a big difference in grp size. I couldn't get the 105 vld's to shoot consistently after trying many combinations. I also did better with the 90gr bergers. With the 108's I use 29.7gr RL-15, or 29.9gr Varget, with cci-450 primers.

 

[Forum Boss]

4" group at 500 yards isn't bad at all with a wobbly rest set-up.

I would attribute most of the vertical to: driver error, possible mirage, lack of aiming precision, possible rifle hop on the bags. Next time you go out, concentrate on making sure the reticle is absolutely still, I mean absolutely, when you pull the trigger. I don't know what your pressure signs are, or what your velocity is, but I might try some rounds at 30.3 and 30.5 with the 105s .010-.015 in the lands.

Also, make sure your action screws are tight, and your optics attachments are tight.

 

[oldhoward]

Thank you everyone.

 

[queen_stick]

I disagree with the suggestion to neck turn in order to reduce your group size at this point. I used unturned Lapua brass in my 6BR for 1K competition last year. I shot several 6" groups in practice, and shot in the 9-inch range in most matches (a few better, a few worse), which will win a relay if you dope the wind better than the guys next to you. (I had a few groups that were BIG, but it was all conditions, and my failure to accurately read them... not my unturned brass) All I did to that brass was trim to equal length, chamfered the mouth, and cleaned up the flash holes. At long range, your wind reading skills mean a lot more than 1/4 or 1/2 of one thousandths of neck-wall variation.

Walt

 

[fdshuster]

Ditto to most all of the above. I've attempted to shoot from a very well constructed portable table, but with a 17# Sinclair front rest, 13# rear bag & 12.5# rifle, it wobbled all over the place. had better results using just a Harris Bi-Pod. To expect really good groups at any kind of distance you gotta get on the ground, if physically able or be on a very solid bench. I've tried working with various VLD bullets and have pretty much given up on them. Read the article by Bryan Litz and note the comment about seating depth changes of as little as .005". Others will disagree, and for distances beyond 500 yds. or so, VLD's most likely will have an advantage, but for my max distances of 500 mtrs., I'm not willing to burn up another barrel trying to find that magical seating depth. I find the 95 & 107 Sierra MatchKings seated on top of Varget w/ BR4 primers to meet my requirements, and they are very forgiving. They work with almost any powder, charge, and seating depth. At distances of 300 yds. & beyond wind becomes a big factor, so that becomes a big challange, at least for me. I have seen head and tailwinds cause vertical when there is a scattering of bunkers between me and my target. The wind has to have an up and down effect on the bullet as it passes over the bunkers. Over level terrain, probably not. Just some thoughts: I'll leave more involved comments to those more knowledgable than I.

 

[squirrelduster]

The two easiest things to fix will probably do the most good.
Get on a very stable bench, like concrete, or get on the ground. You can't concentrate on your shooting if you are busy holding the bench still.
Then if that doesn't help is to try a couple other powder charges. Most of the good 6br shooters are using 30.0 to 30.5 grains of Varget.
Try the seating depth after you fine tune the powder charge. Last thing would be turning the case necks.

 

[slim56]

For a first group not bad at all. I am just beginning to shoot 1000 yds and it has been a steep curve, stay with it you will learn how important even the smallest amount of movement in you rest will affect the shot. I agree with squirrelduster. Get a solid rest. Put together 3-4 rounds of ammo beginning at 29 gr and increasing by 0.5 gr up to 32.0 gr. While watching for signs of high pressure shoot a 29gr, 29.5gr, 30gr etc, then repeat the cycle until you have shot the 3-4 rounds of each load at the appropriate target for each load. (Ladder test) I started at 26.5gr and did the same, I found a good group at 27gr and another at 31.5gr. I initially settled at 26.9gr and shot an 11 or 12 inch group at 1000 yds. After playing with some technique and getting a little trigger time, I tried the 31.5gr and went from jumping 0.040 down to 0.010 (not at the same time) and I am shooting 8" groups in calm conditions. I think that they will get smaller still as my technique improves. 6mmbr, Lapua brass (cleaned up necks, 0.002 neck tension, full length sized), Berger 105gr VLD, CCI 450, over 31.5gr Varget. I have not chronographed this load but I am guessing it is going to be right at 3000fps. Keep at it, lots of fun.