Fireforming load vs Formed load AI

[Ozshot]

Not to kick a hornets nest but what does everyone load thier cases to be fire formed vs thier formed cases?. I understand you can only fit so much powder in before AI fireforming (I’m on 223 AI) but I’ve got a buddy that swears he runs a compressed load of the same grains as his formed load but the brass takes the pressure as it forms? I’ve never been game to run up that close I only sit on the max end of a 223 round while fire forming then work up from there but wondering if I can actually skip that process…. Any thoughts??

 

[Jeff Porter]

You don’t need to be that hot to Fireform. Depending on your expectations for accuracy/precision you will probably want to work up a load for each step. ( unless you are just shooting into the berm to fireform)

In my 6BR I use 30gr Varget to fire form to BRA. The BRA load is 29.7 gr H4895…105 Berger Bullet.

both are sub 0.5 moa loads at 0.020” jump. I have 100pc of new brass loaded up to fireform and will shoot it in a 600 yard midrange match. No experience with 223AI but seems to be a waste of barrel life to just fireform and not shoot for a purpose. I know of others that have a rifle for fireforming and another for formed rounds and competition.

 

[10XSHOOTER]

If making AI brass. I will use a max load for bullet and powder in standard case. Fire form in a match. And your good to go. I do grease/oil shoulder a little.

 

[Oso]

When I first started playing with wildcats and case forming a few years ago, I had more questions and OCD issues then I could get my head around and be happy. All of the threads with simple advise of "Just load it and shoot it." didn't give me a comfort or better understanding of what was happening or what the end result would be. One of my big questions was, "What would be the final case length?", and based on this answer then at "What length should I uniform trim the cases?" and finally "Should I trim before or after fire-forming?" Unfortunately, I usually have to do a deep-dive and really get my hands dirty in order to get comfortable and have a solid understanding of what is going on.

I spent a lot of time testing different techniques and sequence of brass prep steps to try and maximize the final case length in 223AI and 6x45AI. Yes - recreated the wheel and made a really nice spreadsheet that answered all my questions. OCD was put to rest on case length.

As it relates to 223AI or other similar "modest" case-forming then the Direct Method (load and shoot) is extremely effective and the loads are extremely accurate. Load normal stout powder charges for .223 and go shoot your initial 1x fire-forming... accurate enough to use for a local match, target practice, plinking or hunting. The only other thing to keep in mind is that the case capacity can vary by headstamp and differs as well if using .223 cases versus 5.56 cases as your donor brass. Just keep this in mind... what may be an acceptable load in one case may be hot in another.

If you are wanting to form a large batch of cases (1K of cases) then you can consider using an Indirect Method (Cream of Wheat or Hydraulic Dies) in order to save barrel life.

As to completely forming the case to match the chamber, it will take approximately 3 firing of each case before they match the rifle's chamber. The position of the shoulder on the 1x fired case is still short of the rifle's chamber. For this reason experienced reloaders recommend that you only resize the neck during reloading for shots 2x and 3x. When in doubt... measure the case length to shoulder datum of your brass using a micrometer or Hornady shoulder bump gage.

Ask me how I know... Yes, another spreadsheet and OCD testing opportunity (do a thread search). I was surprised that after my initial fire-forming (1x) that my 223AI cases grew in length when I went to FL Resize the 1x fired cases. Luckily, I had measured the case length to shoulder datum before and after resizing and discovered they all elongated. I thought I had an issue with the FL die's dimensions being too long or too tight (dragging the case as I extracted it from the die) or maybe the issue was the shell holder being to tall/high restricting the FL die from being able to sufficiently size the length of the case?! I jumped on the forum and asked for advice and insight. When I tested the newly resized 1x brass in my rifle's chamber it fit easily and the bolt closed with no resistance proving not a shoulder bump issue. I did the same measurements pre & post FL resizing on a sample group after 2X firing of the cases. Again, after FL resizing the case length at shoulder grew longer. Finally after the 3x fire-forming, the 3x fired cases had stabilized in length and the FL Sizing die did not drag/squeeze the case body forward toward the shoulder.
Other cartridges that require more dramatic changes to the case body or sizing up/down of case neck may require a different approach. The 223AI is a great introduction to case forming/fire-forming for beginners. Glad I did this cartridge before getting pregnant with more detailed/complexed case forming processes.

Good Luck, Don't Other-think It, & Enjoy.

 

[Walt Krafft]

What Jeff says. I regularly neck 22-250 brass to 6mm and load with my standard load to make 6XC brass. I usually shoot it standing or at 600 yards prone in a match.

 

[darkangel_r2]

Not to kick a hornets nest but what does everyone load thier cases to be fire formed vs thier formed cases?. I understand you can only fit so much powder in before AI fireforming (I’m on 223 AI) but I’ve got a buddy that swears he runs a compressed load of the same grains as his formed load but the brass takes the pressure as it forms? I’ve never been game to run up that close I only sit on the max end of a 223 round while fire forming then work up from there but wondering if I can actually skip that process…. Any thoughts??

Your loads will behave differently in fire formed brass vs virgin brass. There isn't really a reason to push it too hard as it takes some energy away from the shot to form the brass to the chamber, the more brass to move the more energy used. So when you are moving the whole shoulder the behavior of the load is likely very different. So getting useful information on the fireformed load is unlikely.

I would use the cheapest powder and bullet combo you can find to fire form that brass then use your good components when the brass is well formed to the chamber. Run a pressure test on these plinking loads and shoot them in a place where you are at the high end of pressure to get them to form well but not max pressure so you don't open your primer pockets. Get some ball powder and some cheap 55gn pills.

 

[358WCF]

A snappy charge (not necessarily max, but close) listed for the parent case of a medium burning powder (RL12, 4895, etc.) for the cartridge seems to work best for my Ackleys. If I was using a 223 maybe one of the 4198s or RL7 might be a plan. In my experience, if the powder is too slow (4831/165s in 30-06), shoulders will still be rounded & not very distinct with even a max load.

Some examples:

For a 22-250. I still have some RL12 left. Not enough to use seriously for much. Speer #12 lists 36.2gr as max with 52 gr. bullet. 35gr with a 53 gr bullet filled out the shoulders nicely & shot 20 rounds into an inch @ 100 yds. Point of aim was close enough to hit 6" steel at 300 yds. without disturbing the scope adjustment. Sounds like a midrange groundhog load while fireforming to me.

I've used 56gr. of an orphan lot of IMR4895 for 338-06 Imp. similarly. Hornady #10 says 56.4 is max. With 200 gr Speers @ 2700+fps about 1 1/2" lower than point of impact with full house Imp. loads, it will hunt deer just fine if you dont want to run 20 or 25 extra rounds thru your barrel. It shot about 1/2 minute of deer @100 yds. & rang the 300 yd steel with a little hold over.

I need to retire some 30 yr old brass from my 30-06 Imp. Looking thru the stash shows some old 3031 in metal cans & a lonely 1/2 box of Sierra 125 Spitzers. Thinking 52 gr. of 3031 should be just fine in WW brass. Sierra #VI say 53.5 is max.

 

[miningshawn]

With the price and availability of primers now, it may be a smart and money-saving idea (depending on volume) to get a hydraulic forming die. 2000 primers pays for the die, and the case is typically 95% or so formed.

 

[Dub]

With the price and availability of primers now, it may be a smart and money-saving idea (depending on volume) to get a hydraulic forming die. 2000 primers pays for the die, and the case is typically 95% or so formed.

where can one get a hydraulic forming die to do 6PPC from 220 Russian?

 

[miningshawn]

where can one get a hydraulic forming die to do 6PPC from 220 Russian?

I've not had any experience with that cartridge, but Whidden is a good place to start. www.whiddengunworks.com

 

[AckleymanII]

I work up an accuracy load for the fire forming load, which is usually .5g-1.0g below the formed case load, depending on the case, of course.

Fire forming while hunting is what I do quite often, depending on the case and application, 280 AI being the excpeption where I shoot formed case loads only.

 

[Ozshot]

I work up an accuracy load for the fire forming load, which is usually .5g-1.0g below the formed case load, depending on the case, of course.

Fire forming while hunting is what I do quite often, depending on the case and application, 280 AI being the excpeption where I shoot formed case loads only.

Thanks everyone for the tips! I ended up getting an accuracy load for fireforming my 223 brass at 27.4gns of 8208 with the Speer 52gn varmint hp, it was halfway up the neck at that with still no signs of pressure, I don’t think you would get much more in without spilling it in a progressive press. I’m sure it would probably close in a bit tighter with adjustment this is at 100yards with just a front rest out the window of a truck. I’d say it’s my shaky hands why I have the flyer rather then the load!!. Should be good enough for fire forming while hunting though.

 

[bugman]

If making AI brass. I will use a max load for bullet and powder in standard case. Fire form in a match. And your good to go. I do grease/oil shoulder a little.

why grease/ oil, if the object is to have the FF 40 degree shoulder as close to the chamber dimensions as possible. A brake cleaned chamber and oil free loaded parent case is your friend.