Fire Forming Brass - 22-250AI

[Sniper338]

I've read on it... Most people I talk to say to stay away from the cream of wheat method because its messy, and doesn't always work perfectly...

I am going to have to fire-form some 22-250 to 22-250AI here soon and was wondering three things...

Lapua 22-250 brass - uniformed the primer pocket, and cleaned up the flash hole already (not that there was much to uniform or clean)...

1. Do I need to resize the brass in a standard 22-250 sizing die first? Or is that a waste and I should just load it and shoot it?

2. To fire-form do I use a more minimal charge weight or a max load weight? or does it matter?

3. Do I seat the bullets into the lands a bit to build more pressure? Or seat them normal?


Just wondering here, never fire formed anything yet...

 

[ShootDots]

This is what works for me, and works very well. I have fireformed "more than a few" A.I. cases and never had a failure yet. Turn your necks to what you need if you have tight neck chamber. If you have a "no turn" neck chamber, skim turn the high spots of to about 85 percent clean up. Measure a piece of brass with a bullet seated in it. Whatever the neck is, buy a bushing to give you 0.004 neck tension. This "excessive" neck tension will HOLD the base of the cartridge firmly against the boltface, AFTER you have seated the bullets 15-20K into the lands. Use a charge 1 to 1.5grs BELOW max in a loading manual and FIRE! You will have perfectly fireformed brass that FILLS the chamber and keeps you from having headspace problems later on. I have done it with with every A.I. cartridge I have had>>>and I have had, as I stated, more than a few!

 

[22DASHER]

1. Do I need to resize the brass in a standard 22-250 sizing die first? Or is that a waste and I should just load it and shoot it?

2. To fire-form do I use a more minimal charge weight or a max load weight? or does it matter?

3. Do I seat the bullets into the lands a bit to build more pressure? Or seat them normal?


Just wondering here, never fire formed anything yet...

1. No you don't need to resize your brass, especially if you are only shooting Lapua. No need to skin turn necks in my opinion if you don't have a tight neck.

2. Use a max standard 22-250 load and you will get nice crisp shoulders.

3. Yes load them ~20K into lands.

Finally, shoot them at yotes, prairie dogs, anything. My fire forming loads shoot as good as my formed loads but obviously with a lot less velocity.

 

[lightman]

Both of the above methods will work well. I have a tight neck chamber so I turn the necks and load a max charge of whatever powder that I plan to use. They are about 150fps or so slower in the AI chamber, but are very accurate.

 

[Prairiedogger]

I use the load for my 22-250 when I need AI brass. It is still accurate, just a little slower. No wasting bullets or primers.
Then I neck size and trim to AI chamber.

 

[maxscm]

I'm also having a 22/250 AI Built with a 8 twist Rock Creek Barrel.
And planing on shooting the 75 gr Hornady a-max.
What is the max reload Data for a straight 22/250 to fireform the 75 gr weight projectile with Varget?
I haven't found any published Data.

 

[ShootDots]

I'm also having a 22/250 AI Built with a 8 twist Rock Creek Barrel.
And planing on shooting the 75 gr Hornady a-max.
What is the max reload Data for a straight 22/250 to fireform the 75 gr weight projectile with Varget?
I haven't found any published Data.

According to The Hodgdon manual, a 70gr bullet is 32.0grs with Varget.. So probably you would be safe with 30.0grs. However, if you are planning on shooting a 75gr bullet out of a 22-250A.I., I would be looking at H4350 or RL-17. That would be more in the correct burn rate range.

 

[fguffey]

Just wondering here, never fire formed anything yet...

I am surrounded by forum members that disagree, their definition of 'fire forming' is simple, chamber a round, pull the trigger and eject a fire formed case. When I chamber a round, pull the trigger I eject once fired cases.

The 22-250 Remington case can be fire formed to 22-250 40 degree Improved by design.

Ackely made it easy to form cases for his improved chambers. The neck on the standard case is formed/sized when chambered meaning chambering the round sizes the shoulder. Sizing the shoulder to form the neck allows the case to 'head space'. Then there are different receivers, there are push feed receivers and two type of control feeds.

F. Guffey

 

[mshelton]

One thing to possibly keep in mind also.

Don't sit down and fireform every single case, if you want 50 then do 25 or so, fireform the other ones as fowlers when you're working up the load, kinda kills 2 birds with one stone and saves a bit on barrel life.

 

[gotcha]

There is no need to Jam bullets for fire form loads. Ackley designed his case to retain the Neck/shoulder Junction to base dimension of the parent case. Actually you will have a .002" to .003" crush fit. Just chamber a 22-250 round and you'll see a bright spot (contact mark) at the neck/shoulder junction. This way you can use lighter (cheaper) bullets for fire forming....... As others have stated the fire forming loads have less pressure/velocity but, velocity will increase with same powder charge once the case is fully formed. I always use a max charge for the parent case and have never had a problem. I also anneal the cases after fire forming in order to keep shoulder bump uniform. ( 6mm AI, .257 AI, .223 AI, 250AI) Don't trim your brass until AFTER fire form as case OAL will actually shorten after forming.

 

[gotcha]

Forgot to add, Go to Berger site and request load data for 75 or 80 gr bullets in 22-250. They'll e-mail you the info you need.

 

[CatShooter]

There is no need to Jam bullets for fire form loads. Ackley designed his case to retain the Neck/shoulder Junction to base dimension of the parent case. Actually you will have a .002" to .003" crush fit. Just chamber a 22-250 round and you'll see a bright spot (contact mark) at the neck/shoulder junction. This way you can use lighter (cheaper) bullets for fire forming....... As others have stated the fire forming loads have less pressure/velocity but, velocity will increase with same powder charge once the case is fully formed. I always use a max charge for the parent case and have never had a problem. I also anneal the cases after fire forming in order to keep shoulder bump uniform. ( 6mm AI, .257 AI, .223 AI, 250AI) Don't trim your brass until AFTER fire form as case OAL will actually shorten after forming.

Many Ackleys have headspace problems... jamming bullets is a very good idea - 2 thou of crush is a joke - cases vary more than 5 times that much.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3863639.0

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3863175.msg36512990#msg36512990

 

[Brians356]

I've read on it... Most people I talk to say to stay away from the cream of wheat method because its messy, and doesn't always work perfectly...

I've tried both, w/ inert filler (corn grits) and with bullets. I got a lot better results "bulletless". Messy? Not sure what that can refer to, a bit of filler residue inside a case? And you don't need to use filler at all - with a bit more pistol powder, you can just fire them with nothing but powder in them (holding the gun vertical). Next time I fireform cases I'm skipping the filler myself, just need to try it on a few culled cases to see what the proper powder charge is.

A lot easier and less expensive than wasting valuable rifle powder and bullets just to reform cases. Unless you plan to go hunting with the fireforming loads, to kill two birds with one stone, as it were.

 

[Coolhand]

I'm also having a 22/250 AI Built with a 8 twist Rock Creek Barrel.
And planing on shooting the 75 gr Hornady a-max.
What is the max reload Data for a straight 22/250 to fireform the 75 gr weight projectile with Varget?
I haven't found any published Data.

Just looked in the ADI Manual , they only list a load for a 70 Grain bullet for 22/250 Ack ,the MAX is 37 grains of AR2208 ( Varget ) .
For the same bullet in a standard 22/250 the MAX load for Varget is 32 grains.

Mike.

 

[Sniper338]

Thanks for the info fellers!

 

[fguffey]

Many Ackleys have headspace problems... jamming bullets is a very good idea - 2 thou of crush is a joke - cases vary more than 5 times that much.

If a reloader is a reloader with a press with threads and uses dies with threads explain to me how can anyone blame the chamber for head space. I blame the reloader that has never studied SAAMI.

I have rifles that have a perceived head space? problem. When sizing/forming I add to the length of the case from the shoulder to the head of the case. I have 30/06 chambers that are longer than a field reject gage. I form 280 Remington cases to 30/06 with an additional .014" added between the shoulder and case head.

For those that understand what I am talking about the case head has .090" protrusion. The Mauser 98 has .110 case head protrusion with the same cases.

The .090" case head protrusion is from the bottom of the extractor cut, meaning most of the case head has case head support.

F. Guffey

 

[CatShooter]

Many Ackleys have headspace problems... jamming bullets is a very good idea - 2 thou of crush is a joke - cases vary more than 5 times that much.

If a reloader is a reloader with a press with threads and uses dies with threads explain to me how can anyone blame the chamber for head space. I blame the reloader that has never studied SAAMI.

I have rifles that have a perceived head space? problem. When sizing/forming I add to the length of the case from the shoulder to the head of the case. I have 30/06 chambers that are longer than a field reject gage. I form 280 Remington cases to 30/06 with an additional .014" added between the shoulder and case head.

For those that understand what I am talking about the case head has .090" protrusion. The Mauser 98 has .110 case head protrusion with the same cases.

The .090" case head protrusion is from the bottom of the extractor cut, meaning most of the case head has case head support.

F. Guffey

This is silly...

1 - Many smiths use a standard "no-go", as an Ackley "Go", cuz Mr. Ackley said so. That practice leads to excessive headspace... sometimes enough to cause head separations on the second or third firing. I have seen a truck load of Ackleys that were chambered without setting the barrel back - it is a VERY common practice, even today.

2 - Most reloaders that own Ackleys have no idea what SAAMI is.

3 - They have no idea of how to determine headspace of the rifle they just bought

4 - they do not have the where-with-all to form cases from other cases - they bought an Ackley to shoot the original cases in the Ackley chamber, "just like the smith promised them".

To say that someone that just bought a 22-250 (probably the MOST popular of the Ackley family) and then buy 250-300 cases and form them, or buy 22-250 cases and expand the necks and make a false shoulder is way past unrealistic.

You are being an elitist.

 

[gotcha]

There is no need to Jam bullets for fire form loads. Ackley designed his case to retain the Neck/shoulder Junction to base dimension of the parent case. Actually you will have a .002" to .003" crush fit. Just chamber a 22-250 round and you'll see a bright spot (contact mark) at the neck/shoulder junction. This way you can use lighter (cheaper) bullets for fire forming....... As others have stated the fire forming loads have less pressure/velocity but, velocity will increase with same powder charge once the case is fully formed. I always use a max charge for the parent case and have never had a problem. I also anneal the cases after fire forming in order to keep shoulder bump uniform. ( 6mm AI, .257 AI, .223 AI, 250AI) Don't trim your brass until AFTER fire form as case OAL will actually shorten after forming.

Many Ackleys have headspace problems... jamming bullets is a very good idea - 2 thou of crush is a joke - cases vary more than 5 times that much.

Evidently you didn't take time to notice the OP is using Lapua brass.

 

[CatShooter]

There is no need to Jam bullets for fire form loads. Ackley designed his case to retain the Neck/shoulder Junction to base dimension of the parent case. Actually you will have a .002" to .003" crush fit. Just chamber a 22-250 round and you'll see a bright spot (contact mark) at the neck/shoulder junction. This way you can use lighter (cheaper) bullets for fire forming....... As others have stated the fire forming loads have less pressure/velocity but, velocity will increase with same powder charge once the case is fully formed. I always use a max charge for the parent case and have never had a problem. I also anneal the cases after fire forming in order to keep shoulder bump uniform. ( 6mm AI, .257 AI, .223 AI, 250AI) Don't trim your brass until AFTER fire form as case OAL will actually shorten after forming.

Many Ackleys have headspace problems... jamming bullets is a very good idea - 2 thou of crush is a joke - cases vary more than 5 times that much.

Evidently you didn't take time to notice the OP is using Lapua brass.

Evidently, you didn't take time to understand my comment... and do not understand the topic at all.

I shoot Lapua 22-250 brass - it is very nice.


There must be a full moon out tonight.