FIRE FORMING 6.5-06 ACKLEY IMPROVED CASES

[antelopedundee]

I know there are other discussions about this issue, but.......................

I am needing to fire form some 6.5-06AI cases. I am planning to start with .270 Win brass. I will add some powder to the case but no cream of wheat or other filler except a tad of TP to keep the powder from spilling out. I don't have any Bullseye and don't really want to buy any. I have other powders to use up like Blue Dot, Hercules 2400, WW 296 and IMR SR4756. Which one would you use and how much of it would you use?

I had originally planned to use .25-06 cases and neck them up and seat to touch or jam. But I generated this comment from someone on another site.

"If you use '06 brass, you will end up with brass that is .015" shorter than it should be! This can cause carbon ring build up and other issues that can be avoided by just using 270 brass in the first place.
I would never use any 06 length brass to foem an A.I. or a Sherman."

So is a too short case be more likely to promote carbon ring formation than a proper length case?

What other issues might a too short case cause?

Now that I have .270 cases that I didn't really need I don't want to trim them to .06 length so I'm sorta committed to using the no bullet approach; or at least trying it.

In the past I fire formed 6.5-06AI cases with stiff loads and bullets slightly jammed as my mentor RG suggested. I have lots of those cases, but they are a bit too small [per the smith] to fit properly in this new rifle.

 

[std7mag]

Sooo, in other words, it has been suggested not to use parent cases to make Ackley Improved?
And that you have poor cleaning habbits?

To my way of thinking, especially for a hunting rig, 0.015" shorter case length is fine.
Regardless of which case you use, it will end up shorter after fire forming.

And even though your going the AI route, your case length will stretch/grow.

 

[Shoebox]

) 270 w brass Trim the cases to 2.514" (it will shrink 0.020" during the fire-forming process to get your proper case length of 2.494")

I use bullet jam mild load

 

[L.Sherm]

Explain to me what .015 short is gonna hurt.
Think about it, if you clean the end of the neck are everytime you clean the barrel no carbon ring so what does it hurt.
If you use .005 short brass and you dont keep up on the carbon ring you will have the same problem as .015 short brass.

 

[antelopedundee]

Sooo, in other words, it has been suggested not to use parent cases to make Ackley Improved?
And that you have poor cleaning habbits?

To my way of thinking, especially for a hunting rig, 0.015" shorter case length is fine.
Regardless of which case you use, it will end up shorter after fire forming.

And even though your going the AI route, your case length will stretch/grow.

If I use .270 brass there is no need to trim first and I can trim to the proper length later so the cases will be where they need to be. I've wasted my cases and my money if I trim now.

 

[antelopedundee]

Sooo, in other words, it has been suggested not to use parent cases to make Ackley Improved?
And that you have poor cleaning habbits?

To my way of thinking, especially for a hunting rig, 0.015" shorter case length is fine.
Regardless of which case you use, it will end up shorter after fire forming.

And even though your going the AI route, your case length will stretch/grow.

Other than going brushless the last 3 years my cleaning habits are ok I think.

 

[antelopedundee]

Explain to me what .015 short is gonna hurt.
Think about it, if you clean the end of the neck are everytime you clean the barrel no carbon ring so what does it hurt.
If you use .005 short brass and you dont keep up on the carbon ring you will have the same problem as .015 short brass.

I was hoping that someone here could explain what issues [if any] a too short neck would cause.

 

[L.Sherm]

Other than going brushless the last 3 years my cleaning habits are ok I think.

I seriously doudt your getting the carbon out of your barrels going brushless.
A borescope is the only way to know, there cheap these days there worth there wait in gold to see how your doing cleaning barrels.
I thought I was was getting the carbon out of my barrels untill I got a borescope using a brush. After testing many products that people claimed worked good I found they didnt touch the carbon in my barrels even soaking overnight. I found 2 that work good so those are the ones I use now.

 

[L.Sherm]

Get a borescope keep up on the carbon ring and 06 Lapua brass will work great in your 6.5x06AI even .015. short. I use the best brass available anymore I learned the hard way cutting corners buying run of the mill brass.

 

[antelopedundee]

When you are resizing to 264 place a .010 shin between the press and die to create a .010 false shoulder so you will not have to jam the bullet. Works like a charm.

According to the smith if I heard him right, commercial .25-06 ammo chambered with a smidgen of resistance so I think that would be unnecessary.

 

[B23]

Get a borescope keep up on the carbon ring and 06 Lapua brass will work great in your 6.5x06AI even .015. short. I use the best brass available anymore I learned the hard way cutting corners buying run of the mill brass.

My dad has a 6 & 6.5-06AI and uses Lapua 30-06 brass as the parent case for both.

 

[antelopedundee]

I seriously doudt your getting the carbon out of your barrels going brushless.
A borescope is the only way to know, there cheap these days there worth there wait in gold to see how your doing cleaning barrels.
I thought I was was getting the carbon out of my barrels untill I got a borescope using a brush. After testing many products that people claimed worked good I found they didnt touch the carbon in my barrels even soaking overnight. I found 2 that work good so those are the ones I use now.

Can you recommend a low cost suitable bore scope?
TIA

 

[L.Sherm]

Teslong

 

[antelopedundee]

Get a borescope keep up on the carbon ring and 06 Lapua brass will work great in your 6.5x06AI even .015. short. I use the best brass available anymore I learned the hard way cutting corners buying run of the mill brass.

I have 100 new Nosler .270 cases so I plan to use them. Since I bought them I want to at least try the bullet-less method.

I was thinking maybe 25 grains of the SR4756.

Someone suggested to use a case full of Bullseye.

 

[B23]

I haven't read all the reply's so if this was already mentioned, my apologizes, but after having multiple different "improved" cartridges, I've yet to have a fire forming load that didn't shoot nearly, or as good as, my fully formed loads. Also, I think you get a little better and more consistently formed case when you fire form with a conventional load, too.

 

[antelopedundee]

I haven't read all the reply's so if this was already mentioned, my apologizes, but after having multiple different "improved" cartridges, I've yet to have a fire forming load that didn't shoot nearly, or as good as, my fully formed loads. Also, I think you get a little better and more consistently formed case when you fire form with a conventional load, too.

Accuracy isn't necessarily my first concern, since I was primarily looking at preserving case length. I would hope the bulletless approach would work well enough to give a case that's 90% there and then I would finish the job with bullets seated to touch or jam and use those to "sight in" and stuff. I have another 6.5-06AI that I'm going to rebarrel so I don't see putting a lot of rounds down this one.

 

[Kurz]

You know, here are the SAAMI spec drawings for the .270 Win. cartridge and chamber.




Note the case length: 2.540" (-0.020")

Now look at the chamber length: 2.560"

The difference here is 0.020" between the case length and the chamber length. This is in place so that the case neck is not crushed into the transition angle, causing the pressure to potentially get too high. This practice of making the chamber reamer with a slightly longer neck is an industry standard. All SAAMI prints show these dimensions.

Virtually all of us cutting chambers and reloading cartridges are aware of this slightly longer neck length in the chamber. Reamer makers grind this additional length onto your reamers.

 

[antelopedundee]

You know, here are the SAAMI spec drawings for the .270 Win. cartridge and chamber.

View attachment 1177703
View attachment 1177704

Note the case length: 2.540" (-0.020")

Now look at the chamber length: 2.560"

The difference here is 0.020" between the case length and the chamber length. This is in place so that the case neck is not crushed into the transition angle, causing the pressure to potentially get too high. This practice of making the chamber reamer with a slightly longer neck is an industry standard. All SAAMI prints show these dimensions.

Virtually all of us cutting chambers and reloading cartridges are aware of this slightly longer neck length in the chamber. Reamer makers grind this additional length onto your reamers.

Thank you for that info.

So is the .020 clearance kind of standard for .06 based cases?

I had a PM discussion with another member here about just using powder and a TP plug in a .270 case and just letting it enter the transition angle area. However the .270 case [after FL sizing in a 6.5-06 die] wouldn't chamber without a ton of effort so I am just going to trim to .06 length and fire form with a bullet like I've done before.

 

[Kurz]

So is the .020 clearance kind of standard for .06 based cases?

All SAAMI and CIP cases and chambers. Wildcat chambers which have not made it through the SAAMI or CIP process have to be examined with regard to the parent case you choose to use.

 

[bozo699]

Get a borescope keep up on the carbon ring and 06 Lapua brass will work great in your 6.5x06AI even .015. short. I use the best brass available anymore I learned the hard way cutting corners buying run of the mill brass.

100% spot on!... both in borescope and good brass!....Great advice for ya antelopedundee.


LSherm,
What have you found that works so good on your carbon,... I’m on top of mine but I’m curious of what your doing?
Wayne