FineTuning Load with 95 gr VLD's??

[Rock]

I am shooting a 6BR with 95VLD's. I just started reloading a month ago and am using Quickload also.
After 1st day of load development with 95 Berger VLD's and Varget,Lapua brass and Fed205M primers:
I got best results with 31.0gr Varget-4 shot group .314 at 100yds, with 5 shots,1 sighter+4shot group)- ES-6, and SD of 2.6.Velocity ave 2922 with 26" barrel.
I loaded them .005 off of the lands.

Now I need to see if the ES and SD hold up with more rounds as well as try seating depth changes.

What has worked best for you guys to fine tune a load with the VLD's. I stayed off of the lands because I am new at this and didn't want to get into a high pressure situation.

How close do you usually need to load the Vld's to the lands? Do you load them just to the lands or do you load them so you feel the bullet hit the lands and actually make a mark on the bullet?
Thanks guys!

 

[Forum Boss]

Stick 'em .015" into the lands and run them as fast as you can. With the short bearing surface, I could actually push them faster than Hornady V-Max 87s. Varget worked well for me. I was about at your load level, but had them running over 3000 from a 27" PacNor 8-twist bbl.

I would also try H4895 if you have some.

- - -

Having said that, .314" groups are pretty darn good, and your ES/SD couldn't be better. You may be sacrificing some of that consistency in ES if you hot up the load. But you'll never know how accurate they can be until you run 'em near max with good solid contact in the rifling.

So there's no confusion, I'm referring to seating .015" beyond the OAL where a Stoney point gauge,dummy bullet) has initial metal to metal contact.

Also I strongly recommend you check your 95 VLDs for overall length and sort by bearing surface. We had one batch where some bullets were way longer than others. Recent production is pretty good though.

 

[Rock]

Mod,
I haven't gone up to .015 into the lands-not even close. I only worked loads from .0.10 out to .005 into the lands. So far .005 out is the most accurate. As I got into the lands the groups spread way out --about 1.3 inch 5 shot groups at 100yds.So I stopped at .005 in.
Now it seems that going in even farther may be what it takes to get the load to shoot it's best. I'll give it a try and see what happens. The 95VLD's seem very finicky.
I shot the 80grain FB and could put them into about .3 or less all day long. Haven't yet figured out the VLD's. I am shooting a 26", 1-9" twist barrel.
So if my comparator length on the lands in 1.782,I should try up to 1.797 on my comparator- just making sure.

 

[Forum Boss]

.005 away from contact to .005 into the rifling is sort of a "no man's land" if you have variances in ogive positions. Meaning some bullets may be touching while others are not. There is no hard and fast rule of course--some rifles may, indeed, work best with the bullets "just kissing". But consider that most short-range BR shooters are putting their bullets pretty far INTO the lands. Also Walt Berger himself will tell you he favors in-the-lands seating and his bullets, for the most part, are designed accordingly with the exception of the LTB/Match series, which, much like Sierra MKs, work well both jammed and jumped.

Yes, I'd say the 95s can be finicky--that's why I recommended you sort yours. Hopefully you did not get a batch that had extreme variations in bullet OAL and base to ogive measurements.

 

[Rock]

Thanks Mod,
I have learned alot. After measuring,I have found the current lot of bullets I was using is not very uniform. There are large variations in base-ogive and length. The new batch I just recieved is way better, with base-ogive all very close. I am going to load a bunch of rounds to.010 and .015 into the lands and give it a try. I'll load some with Varget and some with IMR 4895 .
I'll let you know how it goes

 

[Rock]

I worked up a couple of loads with the bullets in the lands. I shot 4 shot groups at 100yds with variable 10-15mph winds.
With Varget I tried 31.0 gr and had the best group at .010 into the lands. I shot a 4 shot group with 3 going into a nice cluster of .3 and the 4th opening the group up to .9.

With IMR 4895- I had used 30.7gr and got the best group at .015 into the lands. It was a nice diamond shaped 4shot group measuring .7.

Does it seem like these loads may have potential?
Thanks

 

[benjamin199]

Rock,
Have you compared any of your data with the OBT from Chris Long's formula? I am hoping to start getting some initial data this coming weekend to help in fine tuning my quick load data.
I am just waiting for a couple of neck bushings. I have to break in my barrel so after my I finish the shoot and clean routine I am going to start a 3 shot group ladder test to gather data for quick load and maybe get some test data for the OBT. Let me know how how things are adding up, I will let you know what works with my rifle,26" 9 twist 3 groove).

 

[Rock]

I had a problem with my chrono- hopefully just a weak battery- so I wasn't able accurately to check my speeds. I am going to load up some more,trying to get to the OBT according to Quickload and see what I come up with. Last time I went out I just ran them fast and into the lands to see what type of pressure symptoms I got. Now I will actually try to work a load.

 

[Forum Boss]

Rock, I know Chris and others will take issue with this, but I wouldn't worry too much about OBT. It is a valid concept, but there are a whole bunch of variables involved that QuickLOAD can't measure including barrel stiffness, friction coefficients of bore surface, land-groove configuration, damping properties of barrel. We know, for a fact, from experiments with tuners, that more/less weight on the end of a barrel will affect the vibration cycle and amplitude.

I've also seen, time and again, a good 6BR produce essentially identical great groups over a wide velocity span and with different powders. And I've seen things that have nothing to do with barrel time, such as neck tension, make the difference between a good load and a great load, That's why I encourage folks to go out and find a practical max, and see if you can find very good accuracy within .2-.4 grains,below) that number.

I would just continue to find a tight-grouping load .010-.020 into the lands, find your max, and see if you can get a good velocity node maybe .2 grain back from max pressure.

There ARE some barrels which, for a variety of reasons, may prefer to shoot the bullets jumped--sometimes as much as .025, but Walt intended those bullets to engage the rifling, so that's worth trying.

The important thing is to sort those bullets for bearing surface and OAL and watch your wind flags. I tried mine with 31.4 Varget, and I probably could add a little powder. But start much lower and work up.

This is not meant to detract from OBT theories or the great results Chris,Techshooter) has achieved with them. See: http://www.the-long-family.com/OBT_paper.htm .

I would just proceed with a normal load work-up and watch what forms up on the target rather than try to achieve a specific in-barrel dwell time.

 

[Rock]

Mod,
Thanks for the words of wisdom. I have been trying to determine the best way to get the 95 vld to shoot. It has been a good learning experience. I'll try what you have suggested and see what I can come up with.

 

[techshooter]

I certainly don't take issue with that statement, as I'll likely be be the last person to claim that you can go directly from a computer to bugholes! It takes range testing, and sometimes lots of it, to get a finely tuned load. However, the computer, with some care, can get you a lot closer to the optimum combination of components, and greatly reduce the range testing required. Even though the computer predictions are full of approximations and other holes, they can be very effective at providing insight into the trade spaces that we play in - powder choices, seating depths, barrel lengths, etc. Exploring the behavior of certain combinations, quickly and without material cost by way of computer simulation, can provide a good understanding of the interactions. When you do get to the range, you will see these interactions, and be able to quickly determine which way to drive the process. This process of computer simulation followed by laboratory or field validation is central to most modern technology development processes today. Nothing substitutes for good,safe!) procedures during load development, at the range, and on the target. If it works, then it ain't brake, so don't fix it!

Cheers,

 

[benjamin199]

I have some initial results, I am sorry it took so long.
Here is what I am using; Lilja 3 groove 26" barrel, chambered for the Berger 95gr VLD with a .270" neck, a Borden alpine action and jewel trigger at 1.5 lbs on a McM A4 stock,Yes this is a varmint gun). For components Lapua brass, CCI BR-4 primers, and IMR 4895. I started with a 3 shot per load ladder test using 29.5 grains as my starting load. I went up in .2 gr increments until I started to see pressure signs at 31.5 grains. Of these there was a nice cluster with the charges from 30.1 to 30.7. For my next test I loaded 10 rounds of each and shot them at 200 yards.,all bullets have been seated .015 into the lands so far)
30.3 gr looked the most consistent so for my next test I loaded 40 test loads at 30.3 grains with 20 rounds seated .010 into the lands and 20 seated .010 from the lands. Unfortunately I ran out of time at the range and was only able to test the first group that was .010 into the lands, here are my results; three 5 shot groups measuring .281", .237", .255" I shot them over my CED M2 in one 15 shot string,started recording groups and velocity after 2 foulers) the 15 shot string had an ES of 21,hi=2934 low=2913), SD of 6.5, and an average velocity of 2922.
My old chroney beta measured an average of 3007 for my previous 10 shot group. Now as far as the OBT for a 26" barrel quick load predicted a 30.5 grain load @ 2952fps for a barrel time of 1.201mSec So in my case it ended up being very close.
I am still working on my load, my shooting form, and am just scratching the surface when it comes to reading wind, but I am very pleased with the way things are going so far with this bullet, my first custom gun and the 6mm BR cartridge.

 

[Rock]

Benjamin,
Looks like you are having great results. Very nice groups .
I am trying some 95BIB FB bullets. I'll let you know how it goes.