F TR - Tuner Yes/No?

[Marksman63]

Mates, I have to rebarrel my F TR rifle.
Pro/Cons for a tuner (e.g. EC tuner)?
Thanks

 

[memilanuk]

About the only 'con' is that depending on how close to the weight limit you run, it might put you at/over the limit. Otherwise, I'd say do it.

 

[Dub]

@RKS

 

[Ned Ludd]

I have Erik's tuner on two of my F-TR rifles, a .308 Win and a .223 Rem. They absolutely work as advertised, but there are a few considerations. First, it is an additional step in the reloading process; i.e. charge weight > seating depth > tuner testing. I typically load up about 50 rounds for the initial tuner test, several foulers/sighters, plus three shot groups on even numbered tuner increments ("0" to "+1" on the 2nd rotation). Next, I will usually go back over what appears to be the "optimal" tuner window a second time, testing in single increments. It is important that you keep good records of the groups at various tuner settings, in the event you need to adjust it at a match. You will often see groups expand vertically or horizontally to either side of the "optimal window", so you need to know which way to spin it to reduce the group spread if you start getting excess vertical or horizontal dispersion during a match. In other words, you may want to turn the tuner an increment or two in the direction where you observed groups with increased horizontal dispersion if you start getting excess vertical during a match. But you need to know which direction that is. If you turn it the wrong direction, it will likely make the problem even worse.

Second, it is important to note that just because you can shrink groups with a tuner, that doesn't replace proper load development. The idea is to carry out standard load development with the tuner screwed all the way down to "0". Only when you have the load properly developed should you start testing the tuner settings. A sub-optimal load that you made shoot tiny groups solely by using the tuner is still just that, a sub-optimal load, and it will likely go out of tune much more easily as conditions change and/or the barrel heats up.

Finally, I have come to believe over time that it is also a good practice to test the optimal tuner settings ("window") over the range of atmospheric conditions you might reasonably expect to see during a typical F-Class shooting season. If the optimal tuner setting changes due to a markedly different temp/humidity on a given day by an amount that is greater than half the width of the "optimal window", it is likely that it will no longer be in tune if you simply leave it set in the middle of the original "optimal window" that you initially identified. In other words, identifying and maintaining the optimal tuner settings is no different than load development. There is no "one size fits all", or "set it and forget it". You have to test in a variety of conditions so that you know in advance where the tuner needs to be set in a given set of conditions, even if you ultimately find that you leave it on the same setting the majority of the time.

The tuners themselves are not too expensive, although the cost adds up by the time you include having the barrel threaded and the amount of testing that goes into knowing how to set it properly in a given condition. These are additional considerations that someone not using a tuner typically doesn't think about. Only the end user can decide whether the benefits are worth the extra cost, time, and effort. As I stated earlier, Erik's tuners most definitely work as advertised, but in order to get the most out of one, you also have to put in a lot more effort.

 

[Rob01]

Just to bring another tuner to your radar take a look at the Kinetic Security Solutions ATS. No special machining needed as some need. Screw it right on a threaded muzzle and put either a brake, suppressor or just a thread protector if your sport doesn't allow the two others.

Kinetic Security Solutions LLC

Dedicated to providing quality products to the shooting community.

www.kineticsecuritysolutions.com

Put one on my 6.5 Creedmoor match rifle I use in PRS and used factory ammo and was easy to tune and took no time at all. Did it with three different lots. Below is a 5 shot group at 100 I used another bullet hole as a target. I was worried that it wouldn't hold at longer ranges but got a range day before my first match with it and shot steel at 930 yard and the the three shots were almost touching from what the spotter said. I am happy with it. I like the ability to tune my factory ammo and plan to play with it on my handloads as well.

 

[Dub]

great point @Ned Ludd. I do not think one is for me. I may loose a point or few to users like you, or not. To me there is enough in load development and confidence in my rifle to not add another variable. Not saying it is not a good add, just something I do not plan to pursue.

 

[jackieschmidt]

great point @Ned Ludd. I do not think one is for me. I may loose a point or few to users like you, or not. To me there is enough in load development and confidence in my rifle to not add another variable. Not saying it is not a good add, just something I do not plan to pursue.

i believe in tuners.
it would seem to me that in a Rifle such as a FTR, it would give you the best of both worlds. Use your usual method of tuning for SD and ES, then tweet the tuner to get the vpbarrel tuned to that load.

What am I missing here?

 

[Ned Ludd]

i believe in tuners.
it would seem to me that in a Rifle such as a FTR, it would give you the best of both worlds. Use your usual method of tuning for SD and ES, then tweet the tuner to get the vpbarrel tuned to that load.

What am I missing here?

As I mentioned, I have three tuners on different barrels for two different F-TR rifles. I just ordered five new .30 cal barrels. None will be threaded for a tuner. For me personally, it's too much cost, effort, and barrel life to justify the minute gains the tuner might provide. I have never had any trouble tuning a load in a quality barrel without a tuner that consistently gave sufficiently good precision to where the limiting factor in F-TR matches was how well I read the conditions.

The real key in F-Class matches with the long strings of fire (20+ rounds) is correctly interpreting the wind conditions during the time it takes to fire the string, not the absolute precision of the load. The difference between a 0.1 MOA load and a load that consistently shoots 0.25 MOA is almost meaningless if a missed wind call puts your shot out in the 7-ring. Yet developing a consistent 0.1 MOA load will likely require significantly more effort, if it's even achievable at all with a given F-TR rifle. For that reason, I consider having a load in a rifle (with or without a tuner) that is capable of shooting cleans with high X-counts in very mild conditions to be sufficient. After that, it's all on me. If I can do that without a tuner, it becomes much harder to justify the added cost, time, and effort of adding the tuner into the mix. Opinions amongst F-Class shooters may certainly differ as to how much value a tuner provides. None of the different opinions are "wrong" or "right", they are merely a reflection of the end user's preferences. If I had definitive proof that the use of a tuner significantly improved either my scores or X-counts, I would probably have to modify my view of their use. However, after using tuners over the course of several years on the two rifles that have them, while also shooting other similar setups that do not have tuners, I have not been able to provide such definitive evidence.

 

[Dub]

Kind of what I meant above

 

[Rope2horns]

I'm not a FTR shooter....that said I do shoot Fopen, use a tuner (EC and Dan Bramleys) on most of my barrels and travel. The last part is what is important IMO. If you are a traveling Fclass shooter a tuner gives you options. Options are nice to have if you are traveling half way across the country and the load is slightly off due to whatever reasons. A tuner can save your weekend, I know it has saved mine on more than one occasion. Knowing the direction to turn before hand to achieve the desired results is a good thing, but its not anything you can't figure out on the fly during a unlimited sighter portion of your relay if available.

 

[rardoin]

^^^^ My sentiments and experience also. It sucks to have a rifle hammering in the morning and losing points at 12:00 and 06:00 in match 2 and three (or the reverse) and can’t adjust a load to bring back into tune. On several occasions I’ve salvaged a day with a simple single increment turn of my tuner. I see no downside to having that option. I showed up at the TSRA with a tunerless barrel and watch my gun go from a 5-6” waterline to 10”+ on the last day as the weather got really warm. Hero to zero Never again

 

[Jennb]

I have enough trouble turning my scope turrets the right direction so a tuner is not something I want to pursue.

 

[AckleymanII]

Tuners are dumb butt simple to use, even the Browning boss. The thought of the Tuner is intimidating to some, but should not be.

Recently, I put a Mike Ezel tuner on a 6 XC, 30" 7T, 4g Krieger and was shooting naked 115 Dtac bullets with H4350.

I screwed the tuner all the way to the rear, then out one full revolution, then a tad more to get the 0 to line up at 12 o'clock.

I worked up a load with the tuner never moved from the 12 o'clock position. The barrel was shooting in the low 2's.

Now to start tuning, shot groups at -6, -4, -2, 0, +2, +4, +6.

-6 and +6 opened up, with -4 thru +4 shooting groups .109- to .168

All of this took around 80 shots including sight in.

Basically, the barrel is shooting as good as I can shoot, I don't have the quality front rest or rear bag to shoot much smaller than this, and the Hunter class stock on the Panda is not a help at all.

My neighbor was shooting with me and was really intimidated when he looked at the tuner. He encouraged me to not touch the tuner and leave "well enough alone". He was impressed at all the groups in the 1s that were shot in succession, wind was not exactly calm, but I did have out a wind flag. The neighbor is NOW trying to figure out how many Ezel tuners he wants to buy.