F-TR Bartlein vs Krieger and Barrel length / Twist rate

[Tony1320]

I have a Remington 700 5r that I was gonna leave alone and continue practicing with but I'm thinking of re barreling it now.

Is there any difference between Bartlein and Krieger? What I've read so far they both make excellent barrels but I want to make sure before I spend the money.

Would I be giving up a lot going with a 26" barrel vs 30" ? I have a Masterpiece Arms chassis on the way and I also use this rifle for all around shooting I'm worried 30" may be too long for comfort.

I have a good stock of Berger Juggernauts right now but in the future I'm looking at the 200.20x should I just go with a 1-10 twist?

I want to shoot a few more F-TR matches this year, distances are 300-900m

 

[Bart B.]

26" is good for 200 grain bullets in 1:10" twist barrels. 1:11" may be better, that's what I've used. I watched a record set at 600 yards with Sierra 200-gr. HPMK's from small primer 308 cases with 47 gr. of IMR4350 and a 26" 1:11" twist barrel. 20 shots in 4" using aperture sights. Score was 200-19X.

 

[Tony1320]

You'll need 30" barrels to keep 155 grain bullets above tesnsonic speeds at 900 meters in cool weather.

I'm running 185gr Berger Juggernauts

 

[Bart B.]

Updated my #2 post while you did post #3.

185 Juggs will love 1:11" twists from 26" barres. As will 175, 180 and 190's. 26" 1:11" barrels were popular setting most records when the 308 was "the" cartridge for USA NRA match rifle competition.

 

[Ned Ludd]

No matter which brand you decide to use (both are top notch barrel makers), you will be giving up velocity by going with the 26" barrel. It's not solely a matter of barrel length, it's also about the velocity at which a given length barrel tunes in. Is the difference enough to have a big impact? That depends largely on how often you plan to shoot in F-TR matches versus "all around shooting", and how often you plan to shoot at distances past 500-600 yd. As the percentage of either one goes up, the effect of the shorter barrel will be more noticeable. A 26" barrel isn't a deal breaker, I used 26" barrels to shoot 600-1000 yd in F-TR for a couple years before switching to 30" length on all my F-TR rifles and learning to reload. I won a lot of matches at the local level with those rifles. Higher up the food chain, the results were less satisfactory. Part of that was my skill level, part was giving up too much performance with the shorter barrel.

As an example, Bryan Litz and some of the Michigan F-TR shooters have been using 28" straight contour barrels with the 200.20X bullet. Their tuned velocity is in the ~2610 fps range. People using 30"-32" barrels are routinely running the same bullet in tuned loads at ~2640-2680 fps. Those differences in velocity will be good for about 0.1 to 0.3 MOA less wind deflection in a full value 10 mph wind at 1000 yd. However, as the distance decreases, so does the relative wind deflection differential. Is 0.1 to 0.3 MOA enough to make a difference for some shooters? Absolutely. It it a huge difference? No. You could expect to experience a similar effect on velocity with 185s and a 26" barrel. Whether it will make a big difference to you personally again depends on how often you actually intend to shoot in F-TR and/or past 500-600 yd. If those are infrequent occasions, you may never even notice. If often, you may want to consider going with at least a 28" barrel now.

As far as going with a setup that will allow you to run the 200.20Xs, I would be in favor of going that route. Dave Kiff at PTG sells a reamer "optimized" for the seating 185 Juggernauts that cuts 0.168" freebore. A similar reamer currently highly favored among F-TR shooters is the (2013?) F-TR reamer. It cuts a 0.170" freebore, which will work well with either the 200.20X or 185 Juggernaut. A freebore too much longer than that will be sub-optimal for the 185 Juggernaut, and too much shorter will be sub-optimal for the 200.20X. "Sub-optimal" doesn't mean you couldn't still load either bullet, but if you can go with a 10-twist bullet and a freebore that will work well for either one, why not do it? The 185s will not care if they're being spun in a 10-twist barrel, whereas the 200.20Xs will be underspun in an 11-twist barrel. I know this for a fact because that is the exact setup I'm currently using in one of my .308s. That specific setup is giving up about 4-5% of the 200.20X theoretical maximal BC and it has definitely made a difference in matches. I decided to load the 200.20Xs in the 11-twist barrels simply because they were already cut and on the rifles when the 200.20X hit the market. In your case, you can go with a 10-twist barrel and have it chambered with the F-TR reamer (0.170" fb) and end up with a setup that will work just about equally well with either bullet. To me, that's a no-brainer. I would also recommend using Lapua Palma brass (small rifle primer). It has slightly more case volume than standard brass and will last far longer if you're running loads at the upper end of the .308 pressure/velocity spectrum like most F-TR shooters.

 

[Tony1320]

No matter which brand you decide to use (both are top notch barrel makers), you will be giving up velocity by going with the 26" barrel. It's not solely a matter of barrel length, it's also about the velocity at which a given length barrel tunes in. Is the difference enough to have a big impact? That depends largely on how often you plan to shoot in F-TR matches versus "all around shooting", and how often you plan to shoot at distances past 500-600 yd. As the percentage of either one goes up, the effect of the shorter barrel will be more noticeable. A 26" barrel isn't a deal breaker, I used 26" barrels to shoot 600-1000 yd in F-TR for a couple years before switching to 30" length on all my F-TR rifles and learning to reload. I won a lot of matches at the local level with those rifles. Higher up the food chain, the results were less satisfactory. Part of that was my skill level, part was giving up too much performance with the shorter barrel.

As an example, Bryan Litz and some of the Michigan F-TR shooters have been using 28" straight contour barrels with the 200.20X bullet. Their tuned velocity is in the ~2610 fps range. People using 30"-32" barrels are routinely running the same bullet in tuned loads at ~2640-2680 fps. Those differences in velocity will be good for about 0.1 to 0.3 MOA less wind deflection in a full value 10 mph wind at 1000 yd. However, as the distance decreases, so does the relative wind deflection differential. Is 0.1 to 0.3 MOA enough to make a difference for some shooters? Absolutely. It it a huge difference? No. You could expect to experience a similar effect on velocity with 185s and a 26" barrel. Whether it will make a big difference to you personally again depends on how often you actually intend to shoot in F-TR and/or past 500-600 yd. If those are infrequent occasions, you may never even notice. If often, you may want to consider going with at least a 28" barrel now.

As far as going with a setup that will allow you to run the 200.20Xs, I would be in favor of going that route. Dave Kiff at PTG sells a reamer "optimized" for the seating 185 Juggernauts that cuts 0.168" freebore. A similar reamer currently highly favored among F-TR shooters is the (2013?) F-TR reamer. It cuts a 0.170" freebore, which will work well with either the 200.20X or 185 Juggernaut. A freebore too much longer than that will be sub-optimal for the 185 Juggernaut, and too much shorter will be sub-optimal for the 200.20X. "Sub-optimal" doesn't mean you couldn't still load either bullet, but if you can go with a 10-twist bullet and a freebore that will work well for either one, why not do it? The 185s will not care if they're being spun in a 10-twist barrel, whereas the 200.20Xs will be underspun in an 11-twist barrel. I know this for a fact because that is the exact setup I'm currently using in one of my .308s. That specific setup is giving up about 4-5% of the 200.20X theoretical maximal BC and it has definitely made a difference in matches. I decided to load the 200.20Xs in the 11-twist barrels simply because they were already cut and on the rifles when the 200.20X hit the market. In your case, you can go with a 10-twist barrel and have it chambered with the F-TR reamer (0.170" fb) and end up with a setup that will work just about equally well with either bullet. To me, that's a no-brainer. I would also recommend using Lapua Palma brass (small rifle primer). It has slightly more case volume than standard brass and will last far longer if you're running loads at the upper end of the .308 pressure/velocity spectrum like most F-TR shooters.

I plan to shoot 2 more matches this year and that's probably as far as I can commit to right now. Right now I only plan to attend local matches and most of them are 3/5/600. I will go with the 1-10 twist and F-TR freebore.

Thanks for the info

 

[Ned Ludd]

You'll be fine with the 26" barrel then. I currently shoot an F-TR rifle in .223 Rem at those distances that has a 26" barrel. It gives up a little bit in terms of windage, but it's fun to shoot and deadly accurate/precise. You'll probably be much better off with the 26" barrel for the other types of shooting you do as well. Good luck with it.

 

[Tony1320]

You'll be fine with the 26" barrel then. I currently shoot an F-TR rifle in .223 Rem at those distances that has a 26" barrel. It gives up a little bit in terms of windage, but it's fun to shoot and deadly accurate/precise. You'll probably be much better off with the 26" barrel for the other types of shooting you do as well. Good luck with it.

Excellent that's exactly what I wanted to hear thanks

 

[dcali]

I have both of those brands on rifles currently. I don't think I would be able to tell the difference if I didn't already know which was which. And yeah, 26" is a little short, but perfectly usable for casual F class shooting. The vast majority of purpose built rifles are between 28" and 32".

 

[Willow]

I have both of those brands on rifles currently. I don't think I would be able to tell the difference if I didn't already know which was which. And yeah, 26" is a little short, but perfectly usable for casual F class shooting. The vast majority of purpose built rifles are between 28" and 32".

Ditto. I've got a 30" Krieger 1:8 twist chambered in a 6BRAI that shoots bug holes and a 32" Bartlein 1:8.5 twist chambered in 280AI which is also a hammer. It's not so much the brand when it comes to these two barrel manufacturers, moreso the care you take in your load development.

 

[mysticplayer]

If you are competing in FTR, remember that at larger matches, you are competing against shooters who have rifles without any compromise.

Given that you are quoting distance in Meters, I assume you are in Canada?

if you want to chat more, please contact at info@mysticprecision.com

I compete in Canada/US in FTR and also run MysticPrecision.com

There are many positive set ups but having a 1 size fits all is not going to do you well. The sport is becoming very specialised so that each part/component should work in harmony with the other.

Chambers and throats are critical to setting up match quality ammo. I would strongly suggest you start with the bullet before defining the rest of your barrel specs.

Lots of good, some better, a few winning answers.

A PRS type rig is at a disadvantage in FTR.... an FTR rig is way to ungainly to work well in PRS.

PRS tactical caps at 175gr... that chamber will not work with the heavies we use in FTR. And so on and so forth.

Maybe you need 2 barrels?????

Send me an email...

Jerry

 

[Rob01]

You can load up to 178s for PRS Tac with a speed limit of 2800fps.
https://www.precisionrifleseries.com/static/media/uploads/prs_rules.pdf

You can run a 28" barrel pretty easy in PRS. My rifles are 28" plus a 2" brake, I have friends, who are top shooters, who use a 31" with a can and a 33" with a brake. I wouldn't go that long but if he did want to make a dual rifle then a 28-30" is doable. It just comes down to chamber as mentioned. He could shoot the 178 ELD-Ms which have a good BC and still keep him in Tac division but not sure how they would work in a longer freebore chamber made for the heavy .30 bullets. They don't mind a jump so they might work as they work in Remington rifles and they have some horribly long chambers. The dual barrels is probably the best overall idea though if he has the action and money to do it.

 

[Tony1320]

If you are competing in FTR, remember that at larger matches, you are competing against shooters who have rifles without any compromise.

Given that you are quoting distance in Meters, I assume you are in Canada?

if you want to chat more, please contact at info@mysticprecision.com

I compete in Canada/US in FTR and also run MysticPrecision.com

There are many positive set ups but having a 1 size fits all is not going to do you well. The sport is becoming very specialised so that each part/component should work in harmony with the other.

Chambers and throats are critical to setting up match quality ammo. I would strongly suggest you start with the bullet before defining the rest of your barrel specs.

Lots of good, some better, a few winning answers.

A PRS type rig is at a disadvantage in FTR.... an FTR rig is way to ungainly to work well in PRS.

PRS tactical caps at 175gr... that chamber will not work with the heavies we use in FTR. And so on and so forth.

Maybe you need 2 barrels?????

Send me an email...

Jerry

I won't be attending any large matches this year just local matches. I'm hoping to make 2 more matches but that's all I have time for as of right now.

I realize this won't be the ideal setup for F-TR but I don't want this rifle to be a dedicated F-TR setup. If I can commit for next year I will be building a custom F-TR rifle

I have enough 185 Juggernauts to shoot at least the rest of the year with.

Out of curiosity what rifle setup are you running Jerry?

 

[mysticplayer]

Setting up for FTR isn't particularly tough... you have been to matches and seen the huge range of gear. Most important... barrel which is matched to the bullet. The optics suitable to the game. Bipod and bags that let you track properly and consistently.

If the ergonomics of the stock fits you AND allows for consistent control of the rifle in follow through, that is all that is needed.

But many chassis are not designed to handle/balance long heavy barrels, so this is a compromise. To be competitive, your set up should be 1/3 MOA capable for long strings of fire at 300m. That V bull better have lots of holes in it if you want to stay with the pack at 900m.

And any compromise is going to be a royal PITA when you get to 900m. If you are having a hard time holding the 5 ring because of mechanical limits, that is not much fun.

Personally, I compete with Shilen and Krieger barrels with twist, chamber and throating specific to the bullets being used. Twists range from 11 to 8 and all have been successfully used.

If you visit my website and facebook page (mystic precision inc), I have pictures of the rigs I use. Custom made stocks to fit me and what I feel is the better mouse trap.

Jerry