F Open questions
- Thread starter Howfar
- Start date
Nodak7mm
Team Lefse
Howfar said:
#1 - 6BR, you cant go wrong.
#2 - Is $ a factor? BAT, Borden, Defiance, Kelbly, Pierce, cant go wrong there either..
#3 - Fiberglass or Wood? Mcm, MasterClass, Ryan Pierce, PRT.
#4 - Cant go wrong with one from Wisconsin. Brux, Kreiger, Bartlein, North/Broughton
What do you like in those components, find them and go with it...
The answer to all your questions is what's your choice? Lots of good actions out there, Bat, Panda, Stiller to name just a few but there's nothing wrong with a Savage or Remington either. Caliber? For 600 yds you can't go wrong with a 6 BR, pick a caliber you like. Same with barrels: Krieger, Brux, Bartlein, any of the top names will shoot well. Stocks? I like Masterclass. Lots of others out there. Its all up to you.
Well there is a BIG question that needs to be answered.. What kind of wind conditions will you PRIMARILY be shooting in? I shoot at Bayou Rifles just outside of Houston. Generally speaking it is VERY windy with "switching / blustery" conditions. I have shot 6mmBR, 6.5 x 47 and 308 at that range (600yards).. When the winds are not too terribly bad, with any of those rifles, I can shoot upper 190's (197-199) with upwards of 16X's... However, when the wind "does it's Bayou Rifles thing" my scores go down to the low 190's even the upper 180's are not out of the question. With that said, if you are ONLY going to shoot at 600 and the winds are relatively "calm", pick almost any decent caliber, load it correctly and you will do fine! However, if you have horrible wind conditions, I would grab a .284Win or some "improved derivative" thereof and shoot 180Hybrids. You will be glad you did! As far as the rifle is concerned, the other guys on here will give you excellent info...
Shootdots,
winds are a valid point, especially at my local range. I can drop a feather at home and it will fall straight down, at the range it will blow
50 yds before it lights. Just something about the range being next to a lake and sitting in a valley facing east that makes it "suck" wind.
Second point which I forgot to mention is recoil. Looking at a caliber that doesn't thump my ole body as bad.
Thinking along the lines of 6mmbr, 6.5x47, or even 6 dasher or such. I do have a small supply of 6.5mm bullets, that could be a deciding factor,
though the 6mm's are great, as you said.
winds are a valid point, especially at my local range. I can drop a feather at home and it will fall straight down, at the range it will blow
50 yds before it lights. Just something about the range being next to a lake and sitting in a valley facing east that makes it "suck" wind.
Second point which I forgot to mention is recoil. Looking at a caliber that doesn't thump my ole body as bad.
Thinking along the lines of 6mmbr, 6.5x47, or even 6 dasher or such. I do have a small supply of 6.5mm bullets, that could be a deciding factor,
though the 6mm's are great, as you said.
A .284 Win or Shehane in a 21 pound rifle does not recoil hard. I never even think about my Shehane when shooting it. I'm running 180 Hybrids at 2940-2965, depending upon which barrel is installed. It is very pleasant to shoot. [br]
While I have shot well with a 6BR at 600, it was not in stiff winds. If the wind is 10 mph or higher, I do not shoot the 6BR. Errors simply cost too much. We shot a 3X600 at Camp Pendleton Saturday in 10 mph winds with let-offs to 5 and gusts to ~14. My Shehane shot 599-29X. The one dropped point was a centered shot, 1/2" low on first relay. Go figure. I don't think I would have shot that score with my 6BR Viper SS. The Viper is more accurate than the Shehane and nothing to shoot well. But, in wind, it can't compete with a .284. [br]
Also, if you ever want to try 1000 yard shooting, you are already equipped.
While I have shot well with a 6BR at 600, it was not in stiff winds. If the wind is 10 mph or higher, I do not shoot the 6BR. Errors simply cost too much. We shot a 3X600 at Camp Pendleton Saturday in 10 mph winds with let-offs to 5 and gusts to ~14. My Shehane shot 599-29X. The one dropped point was a centered shot, 1/2" low on first relay. Go figure. I don't think I would have shot that score with my 6BR Viper SS. The Viper is more accurate than the Shehane and nothing to shoot well. But, in wind, it can't compete with a .284. [br]
Also, if you ever want to try 1000 yard shooting, you are already equipped.
HowFar: I do understand "excessive" recoil. However, I shoot a 6.5 x 284 for my 1000 yard rifle and I have a friend who shoots a 300WSM with 215Bergers. My rifle, and I am quite sure the .284 recoils A LOT less than his .300. His 300 COULD become wearisome with a 3x60 shot match>>maybe>>>but I can tell you the 6.5 x 284 is so mild I could shoot all day without consequences>>>> I doubt it would be any different with some .284.. Get something CONSIDERABLY larger and you might experience a problem>>>>I still stand by my original assertion that if it is WINDY you would do very well to get yourself a .284 or some improved version... Now, on the other hand, if your wind conditions are relatively mild, a 6mmBR, BRX, Dasher or what I primarily use at 600, a 6.5 x 47 Lapua would all be excellent!!
Rebarreling is something I don't plan on doing a lot of. Looking at a caliber that will last a good while. Kinda leaning towards a 6.5x47 (have a small supply of 6.5mm bullets) or a 6 BR. Forgot about manners stocks, will give them a look.
Maybe a panda fclass action with bartlein barrel.
Still absorbing all the info provided, so many options. gads
Many thanks
Maybe a panda fclass action with bartlein barrel.
Still absorbing all the info provided, so many options. gads
Many thanks
falconpilot
Gold $$ Contributor
Build a 6Dasher..it is the perfect choice.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
To start into F-Open I'd start with a Savage F-Class in 6.5-284. You can pick them up used with about half the barrel life left for under $1000, and the seller will usually give you his load data so you are up and running in after about one day of confirmation testing. I'd spend the rest of the money you'd spend on a rifle on a good rest, rear bag and reloading supplies, that is unless money is no object. To build a rig from scratch is going to run you a minimum of about $2000 by the time you are finished assuming you start with a Remington action.
If you decide you really like it and you want to build a custom rig, then you can do that and sell or re-configure the Savage.
If you decide you really like it and you want to build a custom rig, then you can do that and sell or re-configure the Savage.
sleepygator said:A .284 Win or Shehane in a 21 pound rifle does not recoil hard. I never even think about my Shehane when shooting it. I'm running 180 Hybrids at 2940-2965, depending upon which barrel is installed. It is very pleasant to shoot. [br]
While I have shot well with a 6BR at 600, it was not in stiff winds. If the wind is 10 mph or higher, I do not shoot the 6BR. Errors simply cost too much. We shot a 3X600 at Camp Pendleton Saturday in 10 mph winds with let-offs to 5 and gusts to ~14. My Shehane shot 599-29X. The one dropped point was a centered shot, 1/2" low on first relay. Go figure. I don't think I would have shot that score with my 6BR Viper SS. The Viper is more accurate than the Shehane and nothing to shoot well. But, in wind, it can't compete with a .284. [br]
Also, if you ever want to try 1000 yard shooting, you are already equipped.
I couldn't have worded it better.
A .284 will hold the V bull at 600 yards, what more do you need? Yes the 6BR will shoot inside that if you have the correct conditions, but how often do you/we shoot in those conditions? Certainly not very often here in the UK.
The .284 will hold it's own against the bigger 7mm's at 1000 yards when conditions are mild, when it gets rough that extra 200-250fps of the larger 7mm's really comes into play.
If you want a caliber that really is across the course, then look at the .284 Shehane.
I shot in a minor competition a month or so ago where there was a large contingent of Dutch shooters shooting very accurate 6BR's. We were shooting at a 300 yard F class target at 400 yards, the winds were interesting early on but not to difficult, the Dutch guys rifles were V bull machines. Or at least they were until the wind picked up a bit and we moved back to 500 and then 600 yards, where they struggled, where as the .284's and Shehane's just kept going dropping only the odd point here and there.
Here's an example, one of the 6BR's at 400 yards shot a 2+15 score of 75.13 (150.13 in US money) at 500 yards he had a respectable 71.4 (146.4) but at 600 he shot a 68.4 (143.4) where as at 600 yards a .284 shot a 73.1 (148.1) and a Shehane shot a 74.3 (149.3) The 6BR beat both these rifles at 400 yards, but the .284 and the Shehane finished 1st and 2nd respectively in the 300/500/600 yard short range competition, and the 6BR took 3rd place with a higher V bull count than the .284's
This little v big cartridge debate is an ongoing one which will never be resolved. Cartridge choice is crucial to F-Class success, and depends partly on personal preference / gun handling and recoil issues, but as Steve (Sleepygator) and Ian (Elwood) rightly point out is driven much more by the range weather characteristics. This is even more crucial for us in the UK as we don't string shoot, instead use the two or three to a mound system and the 45-second rule. When the target reappears after your partner's shot, you record his or her score and then have less than a minute to read the wind and take the shot. Tough luck if the wind has made a big change - no waiting for the previous condition to reappear!
There are lots of people who keep telling me that the 6.5X47 Lapua is the ideal short to mid-range cartridge in F, and I certainly considered it and the other smaller 6.5s carefully. They shoot well and can often give staggeringly good elevations even with 120-130gn bullets and at longer ranges than 600. Nevertheless my planned return to F-Open in club comps (still F/TR in League rounds, Ian), will see a 7mm heavy profile Bartlein go onto my onetime F/TR rifle, a Barnard P in Gary Eliseo's superb Competition Machine B1 tube-stock (a bit too heavy a combination for F/TR) and it'll be chambered for .284 Win.
I'll likely use a six or six point five for 200 and 300 yard comps on Diggle's notoriously cold and windy ranges at nearly 1,000 ft ASL in the North of England, but the 284 will be wheeled out for 500 yards and longer. That's what the regulars increasingly use, and which is proving increasingly difficult to beat. And, the cherry on the cake is reasonable components costs and good barrel life, generally better than a 6-Dasher or similar.
So far as 600 yard Bench-Rest is concerned, that's a very different kettle of fish - 5 shots off in 20 seconds while the wind holds definitely favours the 6mm BR and its improved variants with their light recoil and superb grouping ability. However, because they do so well in this role doesn't mean an automatic transfer to F-Class, certainly in British conditions.
There are lots of people who keep telling me that the 6.5X47 Lapua is the ideal short to mid-range cartridge in F, and I certainly considered it and the other smaller 6.5s carefully. They shoot well and can often give staggeringly good elevations even with 120-130gn bullets and at longer ranges than 600. Nevertheless my planned return to F-Open in club comps (still F/TR in League rounds, Ian), will see a 7mm heavy profile Bartlein go onto my onetime F/TR rifle, a Barnard P in Gary Eliseo's superb Competition Machine B1 tube-stock (a bit too heavy a combination for F/TR) and it'll be chambered for .284 Win.
I'll likely use a six or six point five for 200 and 300 yard comps on Diggle's notoriously cold and windy ranges at nearly 1,000 ft ASL in the North of England, but the 284 will be wheeled out for 500 yards and longer. That's what the regulars increasingly use, and which is proving increasingly difficult to beat. And, the cherry on the cake is reasonable components costs and good barrel life, generally better than a 6-Dasher or similar.
So far as 600 yard Bench-Rest is concerned, that's a very different kettle of fish - 5 shots off in 20 seconds while the wind holds definitely favours the 6mm BR and its improved variants with their light recoil and superb grouping ability. However, because they do so well in this role doesn't mean an automatic transfer to F-Class, certainly in British conditions.
Thanks for all the info, I should have added to the original post to also include,,, looking for a mild to light recoiling caliber... The 7mm and .30 cals are just to hard on my aging, fusing vertebrae in my neck. Have shot the .260, 6.5-284 in the past and though they shot well, just looking for something milder,, so have decided on either 6mmBR, 6-6.5x47, or 6.5x47.
Laurie:
"This little v big cartridge debate is an ongoing one which will never be resolved. " I agree, it was debated before I came into this world and will still be debated after I'm long gone. For strictly 600 yds, I think one of my choices will fill the bill, and be easy on the neck.
Do you think a trued 700 action is worthy of my quest, or should one buy a custom action? I have seen where some matches, and nationals have been
won with trued remmys.
Thanks
Laurie:
"This little v big cartridge debate is an ongoing one which will never be resolved. " I agree, it was debated before I came into this world and will still be debated after I'm long gone. For strictly 600 yds, I think one of my choices will fill the bill, and be easy on the neck.
Do you think a trued 700 action is worthy of my quest, or should one buy a custom action? I have seen where some matches, and nationals have been
won with trued remmys.
Thanks
First time in competition my Rem M700SA tubegun in 6.5x47L shot a 572-16X at 600yd in a 3x20 shot match. With more run-time and a better piece of glass I expect better scores.
With your neck condition being a key factor, I can understand a desire to avoid anything bigger and heavier recoiling than the sixes and 6.5s. I'd personally say either straight 6mm BR or 6.5X47 Lapua. The latter will be a little better in wind changes.
If you expect to shoot a fair bit, it'll give better barrel life than the 6mm BR or any of its improved versions. It's often overlooked that Lapua developed and introduced the cartridge for European 3-position ISSF shooters who then (and still today) overwhelmingly used the 6mm BR. The objective was to match the BR in precision and recoil while appreciably extending barrel life. (These ISSF guys and girls shoot a LOT if they're serious - it's like pistol shooting ........... practice, practice, practice!) While many will argue the BR is still inherently more accurate (but if so, by a little not a lot), Lapua did achieve the barrel life improvement and the great thing about this cartridge is that it's such a good all-rounder and ticks so many boxes. I personally prefer the three small to mid-size 6.5s (Lapua / 260 Rem / 6.5mm Hornady Creedmoor) with 123-130gn bullets over 139-142gn bullets and they really do perform even beyond 600 yards.
So far as action goes, a trued Rem 700 is fine if you find one that somebody else has had done. At the end of the day, an R700 is an R700 is an R700 no matter what's been spent on it. I've got a Remy 700 bench gun in 6-Dasher that is a largely straight out of the box 15-year old 700VS job originally in .223 Rem. It was machined up front and had a Sako extractor fitted to suit the BR's larger 0.473-inch dia. case-head and given a look-over by a gunsmith. Otherwise it's as the Green Machine made it. It performs as well as any action / rifle I own ..... but maybe I fell very lucky there.
I use a Stolle Atlas in F/TR these days - a single shot Rem 700 dimensions job with no ejector. I must say I really like it. But ... as other posts say, there's plenty of choice here, lots of really good actions. Barnard S models are very popular in the UK and are ideal for your purpose, but one of our top F-Class rifle builders has recently started importing and fitting a Nesika model as an alternative to this action. So, it's really down to what you like and as always what it costs, what the delivery time is and personal preference.
(Barnards were really popular here a few years back, and were both cheaper than US equivalents with a lot shorter delivery times, so sold really well. Then the NZ dollar rose by 20-25% against the UK pound making them more expensive than homegrown or US manufactured equivalents, so we now see GBR and similar British actions, the Stolle Atlas and other models, Nesika, BAT etc being more 'in' than was the case maybe 5 years ago.)
Any of these single-shot actions shoot well when married to a good barrel and stock, and once a certain level of precision is attained, success is down to a mix of good bullet choice, good handloading practices, and even more so gaining experience / expertise in reading the range conditions and wind-reading, plus as much trigger time as the your schedules and wallet allow you to indulge in.
If you expect to shoot a fair bit, it'll give better barrel life than the 6mm BR or any of its improved versions. It's often overlooked that Lapua developed and introduced the cartridge for European 3-position ISSF shooters who then (and still today) overwhelmingly used the 6mm BR. The objective was to match the BR in precision and recoil while appreciably extending barrel life. (These ISSF guys and girls shoot a LOT if they're serious - it's like pistol shooting ........... practice, practice, practice!) While many will argue the BR is still inherently more accurate (but if so, by a little not a lot), Lapua did achieve the barrel life improvement and the great thing about this cartridge is that it's such a good all-rounder and ticks so many boxes. I personally prefer the three small to mid-size 6.5s (Lapua / 260 Rem / 6.5mm Hornady Creedmoor) with 123-130gn bullets over 139-142gn bullets and they really do perform even beyond 600 yards.
So far as action goes, a trued Rem 700 is fine if you find one that somebody else has had done. At the end of the day, an R700 is an R700 is an R700 no matter what's been spent on it. I've got a Remy 700 bench gun in 6-Dasher that is a largely straight out of the box 15-year old 700VS job originally in .223 Rem. It was machined up front and had a Sako extractor fitted to suit the BR's larger 0.473-inch dia. case-head and given a look-over by a gunsmith. Otherwise it's as the Green Machine made it. It performs as well as any action / rifle I own ..... but maybe I fell very lucky there.
I use a Stolle Atlas in F/TR these days - a single shot Rem 700 dimensions job with no ejector. I must say I really like it. But ... as other posts say, there's plenty of choice here, lots of really good actions. Barnard S models are very popular in the UK and are ideal for your purpose, but one of our top F-Class rifle builders has recently started importing and fitting a Nesika model as an alternative to this action. So, it's really down to what you like and as always what it costs, what the delivery time is and personal preference.
(Barnards were really popular here a few years back, and were both cheaper than US equivalents with a lot shorter delivery times, so sold really well. Then the NZ dollar rose by 20-25% against the UK pound making them more expensive than homegrown or US manufactured equivalents, so we now see GBR and similar British actions, the Stolle Atlas and other models, Nesika, BAT etc being more 'in' than was the case maybe 5 years ago.)
Any of these single-shot actions shoot well when married to a good barrel and stock, and once a certain level of precision is attained, success is down to a mix of good bullet choice, good handloading practices, and even more so gaining experience / expertise in reading the range conditions and wind-reading, plus as much trigger time as the your schedules and wallet allow you to indulge in.
Here's what I went with after lots of research, opinions, and advise here on the forums.
Going to have one of my trued 700 actions rebarreled for 6.5x45L. Good reads on the caliber, plus I have over 1K 6.5 bullets.
Kreiger 1/8 twist, 28".
Have a Mcmillan MBR stock to set the action in, when I can find someone to inlet the stock.
Many thanks for all the info.
Going to have one of my trued 700 actions rebarreled for 6.5x45L. Good reads on the caliber, plus I have over 1K 6.5 bullets.
Kreiger 1/8 twist, 28".
Have a Mcmillan MBR stock to set the action in, when I can find someone to inlet the stock.
Many thanks for all the info.
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