Yes, but an LRBR rifle won't generally run with a SRBR rifle at short range, and vice-versa. Two entirely different disciplines.
F CLASS RIFLE FOR SHORT RANGE BENCHREST
- Thread starter Nick Caprinolo
- Start date
Yes, but an LRBR rifle won't generally run with a SRBR rifle at short range, and vice-versa. Two entirely different disciplines.
Guys I’m getting ready to shoot a match in Dublin Ga. So I haven’t been on the site.
I have to refer back to the Tack Driver. It’s shot at 330 yards which is the far end of Short range. The match has a 22lb weight limit so anyone from F Open on down can participate. The match is there to settle the age old question of whose rifle is the most Accurrate. So far it’s been won with a 6PPC Twice and a 6BRA once. To be fair I haven’t seen too many F Class shooter there. However I have Challenged Eric Cortina to come compete. I think it would be great fun and good for the sport.
Jackie has a point about Cartridges. But surprisingly, I do differ in opinion about what cartridges can win at short range match. I believe the 6BRA is quite capable of hanging with the 6PPC at 100/200 yards and has an advantage if the wind picks up. Long story short, at last years Hog Roast I was going to shoot a 6BRA (103gr bullets 8 twist) in Heavy 100 and 200. My first 2 groups at 100 yards was a .190 and .220. Then I had trouble with the bolt and had to finish with 6PPC. However, I did shoot the 6BRA in the HV 200 and came in 4th. I had one bad shot or it would not have been even close. The bad shot was due to my poor timing, not the gun.
I’m sure a good F Class rifle with the correct chambering could be competitive at short range. But you’re never going to see it because the of the stock and weight limitations only allow it to be shot in Unlimited class for short range group. Also I don’t believe the 7mm can hang accuracy wise. They are great for not getting pushed around in the wind and are accurate, but not in the same way as a 6PPC or 30BR at short range.
Lastly each disciple has its own skill set. I think of 600 and 1000 yard Benchrest like racing fuel dragsters. Shooters are trying to get everything they can out of their combination accuracy wise and running them fast. While F Class is more of a Chess match. Shooters are trying to navigate conditions over a 20 shot string. Not trying to particularly shoot small but keep’em in the 10 ring and preferably on the X. In short range it’s a combination of all the above.
Not for sure if I answered anything but,
”Different Horses for Different Courses.”
Bart
I have to refer back to the Tack Driver. It’s shot at 330 yards which is the far end of Short range. The match has a 22lb weight limit so anyone from F Open on down can participate. The match is there to settle the age old question of whose rifle is the most Accurrate. So far it’s been won with a 6PPC Twice and a 6BRA once. To be fair I haven’t seen too many F Class shooter there. However I have Challenged Eric Cortina to come compete. I think it would be great fun and good for the sport.
Jackie has a point about Cartridges. But surprisingly, I do differ in opinion about what cartridges can win at short range match. I believe the 6BRA is quite capable of hanging with the 6PPC at 100/200 yards and has an advantage if the wind picks up. Long story short, at last years Hog Roast I was going to shoot a 6BRA (103gr bullets 8 twist) in Heavy 100 and 200. My first 2 groups at 100 yards was a .190 and .220. Then I had trouble with the bolt and had to finish with 6PPC. However, I did shoot the 6BRA in the HV 200 and came in 4th. I had one bad shot or it would not have been even close. The bad shot was due to my poor timing, not the gun.
I’m sure a good F Class rifle with the correct chambering could be competitive at short range. But you’re never going to see it because the of the stock and weight limitations only allow it to be shot in Unlimited class for short range group. Also I don’t believe the 7mm can hang accuracy wise. They are great for not getting pushed around in the wind and are accurate, but not in the same way as a 6PPC or 30BR at short range.
Lastly each disciple has its own skill set. I think of 600 and 1000 yard Benchrest like racing fuel dragsters. Shooters are trying to get everything they can out of their combination accuracy wise and running them fast. While F Class is more of a Chess match. Shooters are trying to navigate conditions over a 20 shot string. Not trying to particularly shoot small but keep’em in the 10 ring and preferably on the X. In short range it’s a combination of all the above.
Not for sure if I answered anything but,
”Different Horses for Different Courses.”
Bart
I get the benefit of seeing bunches and bunches of test targets fired at 100 yards from a wide array of rifles and disciplines.(45 round test at 100) There are some good long range and f-class rifles out there but I don't think I've seen a single one that would be competitive in a short range br match yet. It's just two different pieces of equipment, for two different jobs. Some are very good but it's just a different game, equipment and requirements. Totally non-subjective here. It'd make things easier on me if they all shot like short range br rifles but they just don't, quite.
Mulligan
Silver $$ Contributor
I shot my long range about 14 pound dasher in a 200/100 HV club match (not a registered match), I won the yardage at 200 with an 8 twist shooting 103’s.
Long Range br and f-class rifles can do just fine at 100 and 200. Now bring those rifles down to 10.5 pounds and it might be a touch different??? Bart uses his LV rifle (6hammer or a variation of the BR) in long range and sets records.
Don’t sell the BR, Dasher, or BRA…… or hammer short at any distance from 0 to 1000 yards.
CW
Long Range br and f-class rifles can do just fine at 100 and 200. Now bring those rifles down to 10.5 pounds and it might be a touch different??? Bart uses his LV rifle (6hammer or a variation of the BR) in long range and sets records.
Don’t sell the BR, Dasher, or BRA…… or hammer short at any distance from 0 to 1000 yards.
CW
I think my original post was a lot longer and had some good info in it boss. I'm not sure what rule it broke...I can't think of one. I didn't save it because I saw no reason to but it seems to have been edited. Can I not speak from experience here any more, and say so? As I recall, I offered to help anyone, regardless of who's tuner they have and I'm at a loss as to why it was edited without any notice or reason. I know it's not a democracy or anything but I spent a fair amount of time, carefully choosing my words so as not to bend or break your rules, nor step on anyone's toes. Is an experienced view of tuners prohibited and you only allow the views of those that you agree with now? I'm missing something and I honestly don't know what it is. I tried hard to abide by your rules and not say anything that should ruffle any feathers..anywhere and I thought I made it clear that was my objective while making the point that there is still a lot of bad info out there. I stand by that 100%. There was no debate nor argument, that I'm aware of, nor should there have been. I feel like I played by ALL the rules. Maybe I'm missing something. Please let me know what it is because I can't be honest and say it any nicer or less offensively to whoever had their feelings hurt..somehow. I truly don't know how to be nicer without lying to appease someone and I couldn't even do that because I don't have a clue who it p'ed off or why. It seems to be far too easy to do these days, though. Being honest is apparently the problem. Thank you!
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
I know Bart pretty well. I am sure he will read this.
Now, he might come on here and be diplomatic and say that yes, there is a remote possibility that he could do well in a 100/200 Registered Region Level Match with a 6BRA shooting any one of his excellent long range bullets, but he knows exactly how the game is played.
And it ain’t played with 1-8 twist barrels and 103+ grn bullets.
In his book “The Ultimate In Rifle Accuracy”, Glenn Newick stated that in Short Range Benchrest, we shoot the most accurate Rifles on the Planet.
That statement was true 35 years ago, and it is still true today.
Eric would probably show up with a 22 pound Benchrest Rifle chambered in 6BRA, shooting your bullets.
Jackie,
The Hog Roast I shot it at was a qualifier for the World team. I had that much confidence in it. I wouldn’t want to shoot it at every match, but when you get windy switchy conditions (in the right hands), it will beat the piss out of the 6PPC. I wanted to try it enough, I order 3 LV 8 twist barrels from Lederer, but apparently that order went into a black hole.
dcali
Bullet Maker
I think another way to look at it is bullets. The bullet is essentially your accuracy ceiling. You cannot make a rifle shoot better than the bullets you run through it. Short range bullets are inherently more accurate than long range bullets - you have a higher ceiling and they're more forgiving. Can you make a long range bullet shoot very very well? Yes, but not as consistently as you can make as short range bullet.
But ballistic realities being what they are, we need long heavy bullets at long range. The ballistic benefit far outweighs the slight accuracy loss. At short range they don't. This is especially relevant in F class, because you can't just let them rip all at once. It's just not an option.
So yes, it's cartridges, but I believe that is just a side effect of finding the best way to launch the most appropriate bullet - good velocity, mild recoil, etc.
Side note. We always seem to jump from 300 yards to 600. I sometimes wonder what an optimal 450 yard gun would look like.
But ballistic realities being what they are, we need long heavy bullets at long range. The ballistic benefit far outweighs the slight accuracy loss. At short range they don't. This is especially relevant in F class, because you can't just let them rip all at once. It's just not an option.
So yes, it's cartridges, but I believe that is just a side effect of finding the best way to launch the most appropriate bullet - good velocity, mild recoil, etc.
Side note. We always seem to jump from 300 yards to 600. I sometimes wonder what an optimal 450 yard gun would look like.
There’s definitely a transition point where external ballistics will trump inherent mechanical precision. As you suggest, it seems to be somewhere between 300 and 600, but ultimately us defined by conditions.
If you had a 1000y vacuum tunnel, the BR rifles would win even out there.
Elite level shooters in midrange seem to be very competitive in f-class with dashers and other 6mms when conditions don’t place a huge premium on BC and weight. But there’s very little margin and the slower rate of fire can make it a near certainty a condition won’t hold for the string, tilting advantage to the bigger bullets.
At the extreme, even shooter skill can’t overcome the disadvantage of smaller short distance bullets.
Not sure either but I'm fixing to play with a 10 twist small 6mm...either a Grendel or BR. It won't be my primary gun for long or short range but for 200-300 yards or days when conditions are forecasted to be nasty. IME, they won't quite keep up with the 12-14 twist bbl's and 68-80 gr bullets but they don't leave a whole lot on the table either. I think it might be a good Tack Driver gun, fwiw.
dcali
Bullet Maker
I'm not super familiar with the 6s in the 80 grain range. Is anyone making something like a 83-85 grain boattail with a relatively long nose? I feel like that would be a good bet (for 300-400 yards).
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jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
I just got a new 6BRA reamer. I got it with a .060 throat so I can use it for using typical 65/68 grn bullets or throat it for the long range bullets in a 7 1/2 or 8 twist.
I am going to chamber a 1-12 twist to shoot the Barts 80 and see how it will do for the Tack Driver.
Last year, Jeremiah Keefe did very well shooting a regular BR WITH 68 grn bullets. He was in the top 10 in both Score and Group.
One thing I have to get down is shooting faster in the Group portion of the Tack Driver. I shot well in the Score, coming up 6th, but my Group portion was atrocious.
No bullets. I'm shooting Unlimited UBR style match's with a 7mm
cat that's a bit more then the 7BR. Not setting the world on fire but
not getting embarrassed to a large degree. Jeff Gates and Jeremiah
Keefe, keeps me on my toes. I'm signed up for this years Tack Driver
and the rifle being shot in this years match's will be one of my 7mm's
and will be close to that 22 lb limit as long as I shoot UBR Unlimited.
Current build is still ongoing but the first 100 yard score match at the
club is about a month away. As Zombie Killer put it....I plan on being
in the Top 100.....
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I’ve got a 13.5 twist 1.250 straight 6PPC bbl screwed on an IBS 600 yard light rifle that shoots pretty dang good at short range.
There are several 80s in both fb and boat tails, and there are the 87 Bergers but it requires a 10 twist. I think a 12 twist is a little more than needed for any of the 80s that I've shot but I doubt the 87vld will stabilize in a 12. I don't know of anything in between except I think a Sierra 85, which I've heard good things about as a hunting bullet but that's all I know about them.
Junebug has a 10 twist BRDX he shoots the 87 VLD in and he is hard to beat shooting eggs
He's a natural born shooter with about anything
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