F-Class accuracy hand loads

[DougMH]

There was another post on COL, that ended up talking about F-Class. Sort of turned into an argument about "real" shooters vs wimps. I just want say this about it.

1) It sort of saved my shooting at age 65. I just can't do iron sights anymore.
2) My back doesn't like the sitting position of Service Rifle shooting (6 screws and connector plates)
3) I don't like to wear a shooting jacket in 90 deg + weather of Quantico, VA in the summer.
4) It lets me obsess on hand load preparation/testing when I'm not shooting matches.

Shooting in the 190's (albeit low 190's) with a few X's at 1,000 yds in Quantico, VA is very satisfying. More satisfying than trying to focus on a fuzzy front sight blade at any distance.

 

[effendude]

I think that any safe shooting sport is great. We are too small of a group to become elitist, but it happens all the time. I am just glad you are able to shoot. Low 190's are excellent scores at 1000 yards by the way!
Scott

 

[SDDasher]

Doug:
Being in a similar situation and agreeing with all your valid points, I also believe "F" class is a salvation for older shooters wanting to remain competitive and connected with the shooting community. I am encouraged to see the numbers of FTR class shooters growing in numbers at the monthly match I attend regularly. I too have heard the ATC shooters argument for "pure" mid and long range shooting, but never let it deter my love for the sheer joy of doing what I do in "F" class, whimpy or not. It is still a half MOA X ring no matter how wimpy.

 

[Bradley Walker]

There was another post on COL, that ended up talking about F-Class. Sort of turned into an argument about "real" shooters vs wimps.

Yah, I think that is what happened. All over seating depth? Crazy.

I don't have much use for discussion forums that elevate certain people to be "worthy" to advise other people, and then the rest of us... I have seen this before with my other hobby. The "experts" can beat everyone up with their opinions, because even if they are total poopycock or really hair brained they still win, so people defend everything they say... Not to say that is happening here, but it is something that everyone should watch out for...

Not to mention the fact that there some people that are willing to invest TENS OF THOUSANDS of dollars and work full time at something the unwashed masses consider a "hobby" that we get to do when we can... Whether you know it or not, their are professional hobbyists. Not saying it's a bad thing, just saying they exist. People who throw themselves into a leisure activity with every resource they have and become completely absorbed in it. Long range shooting can become very centered around MONEY and how much you are willing to spend.

I like to see more matches at clubs that are kept at the "hobby" level. Whatever they are. Something fun that does not require a $7000 rifle to compete (not to mention a truckload of gear and Buck Rogers reloading lab).

I wish my club would have egg shoots. That sounds like a blast!!! I wanted to have a 200 yard egg shoot with small bore rifles. I think that would be great!!!

PS: Don't get me wrong I like precision gear as much as anyone!!! I like reloading with benchrest level technique, but I also realize that shooting is much harder than reloading...

 

[Keith Glasscock]

While I agree that there are some really expensive setups on the line, there are folks out there shooting and winning with a variety of cheap rifles. I'm one that can't afford a nice rifle, so I use an old Savage 111 deer rifle that I've screwed a good barrel and a stock on to. I don't have a Nightforce scope, couldn't afford it, but instead I shoot a second hand Sightron that is really quite good.

People that ask are usually shocked to find out that my whole setup is maybe $2000, make it $2500 with spotting scope, bipod, rear bag, and shooting mat. Even with the "excessive" amount of money I have in my equipment, I'm still on par, or slightly below what a prone shooter would have in a rifle, match sights, mat, coat, sling, spotting scope, etc.

That same rifle shoots cleans at 600 and holds its own at 1k. That is, when I do my part!

There are folks around that have done more work and more experimenting than any of the rest of us could find the time to do. I value their experience and opinions because the information I have derived from them has been the key to my low-cost success.

 

[DBailey]

I like to see more matches at clubs that are kept at the "hobby" level. Whatever they are. Something fun that does not require a $7000 rifle to compete (not to mention a truckload of gear and Buck Rogers reloading lab).

I'm not trying to nitpick or cause any trouble, but having to have a $7000 rifle to be competitive in F-Class is a myth.
I have 2 F-Open rifles that are not beauty queens but are very capable (unfortunately I'm not) of winning any F-Class match you go to. I have less than $5500 in both of them combined.
F-Class isn't overwhelmingly costly for most people.

 

[Erik Cortina]

I like to see more matches at clubs that are kept at the "hobby" level. Whatever they are. Something fun that does not require a $7000 rifle to compete (not to mention a truckload of gear and Buck Rogers reloading lab).

I'm not trying to nitpick or cause any trouble, but having to have a $7000 rifle to be competitive in F-Class is a myth.
I have 2 F-Open rifles that are not beauty queens but are very capable (unfortunately I'm not) of winning any F-Class match you go to. I have less than $5500 in both of them combined.
F-Class isn't overwhelmingly costly for most people.

If anyone believes that, I have a bridge I'll sell you! ;D

 

[Travelor]

The sling shooters have given me a hard time over the years, BUT they need to wake up and see that the F-Class shooters will be the ones that preserve the long range shooting discipline and keep the long ranges open.

I have even shot with one Club that refused to turn in the F-Class scores to the NRA - this has since been corrected. That Club now has more F-Class shooters attending matches that the "real men shooting from slings" and has finally understood the relationship between the 2 disciplines one range - two classes rather than one real class and one "nuisance" class..

George

 

[GermanS1]

The only problem with F-Class is that it took so long for it to come into existence! We should have had it from the start. I was thrilled to be able to continue shooting after my shoulder surgery, and of course it was because of F-Class. Like Doug said, it allowed me to give some extra attention to my loads, and to some smaller subtleties of wind. Neither of those things required an extra penny of expense, just another opportunity to learn and experiment.

Speaking as a match director, F-Class has been the biggest factor in participation growth in decades. It is far from being just "mature" shooters, we get many new shooters in their 20's, 30's, and 40's coming into F-Class because it's a very simple and less equipment-intensive way to get started. Any basic rifle/scope combination and a sandbag or two will get you going in a mid-range match. I've seen a lot of Savage/Weaver setups do extremely well once the shooter learned the basics and some wind reading and that's a very affordable entry point.

I'll shoot in the sling with irons as long as I can, but there will always be F-Class shooting mixed in for me; it's too good of a challenge to quit!

 

[SDDasher]

I agree totally with German......I like to think of "F" Class as the Champions Tour!

 

[Shynloco]

There was another post on COL, that ended up talking about F-Class. Sort of turned into an argument about "real" shooters vs wimps. I just want say this about it.

1) It sort of saved my shooting at age 65. I just can't do iron sights anymore.
2) My back doesn't like the sitting position of Service Rifle shooting (6 screws and connector plates)
3) I don't like to wear a shooting jacket in 90 deg + weather of Quantico, VA in the summer.
4) It lets me obsess on hand load preparation/testing when I'm not shooting matches.

Shooting in the 190's (albeit low 190's) with a few X's at 1,000 yds in Quantico, VA is very satisfying. More satisfying than trying to focus on a fuzzy front sight blade at any distance.

Doug,
I can SERIOUSLY relate to 1,3,and 4 and especially about those occasional "fuzzy" things called a target bullseye. I remember when I was 64, complaining about physical things I never even thought about feeling, yet there were more surprises when I hit 65. Can't wait for 66 to come a callin. But throughout, I refuse to stop the remarkable fun I have enjoyed and continue to enjoy every time I sit down to the bench and shoot my handloads. I don't compete except in Rimfire local competitions, but still crave that feeling that settles in just like it did when I was 14. Even age can't change that so no matter the discipline, keep at it and enjoy. There are just some things in life that are so unique, that even the inevitable (sometime rotten) process of aging cannot change. Good luck and above all, HAVE FUN!

P.S. Keep riding as well. Those daily 10 milers helps allow all the above.

 

[Bradley Walker]

People that ask are usually shocked to find out that my whole setup is maybe $2000, make it $2500 with spotting scope, bipod, rear bag, and shooting mat. Even with the "excessive" amount of money I have in my equipment, I'm still on par, or slightly below what a prone shooter would have in a rifle, match sights, mat, coat, sling, spotting scope, etc.

My local club has classes. So that can help keep equipment from being the motivating factor (which I still wonder if in the end it is). They have a prone match and they have guys with slings and sights, Ars on bipods, and full blown bench guns on the same line but they don't have to compete necessarily.

 

[Nodak7mm]

F-Class isn't overwhelmingly costly for most people.

I agree with David on this, but one also has to retain a comparative perspective on their collective hobby "stuff". Sure, I have some money tied up in equipment, but alot of it has been accumulated over 25 yrs. And yes, I have two custom actions with good optics. And I get looks/comments from some folks like, "Dang, how can you afford that or you must be rich. There is no way I can afford that."

But, but, I dont have a snocat, motorcycle, golf clubs, boat, 3 bows, & shoot trap, new vehicles every yr, I dont attend weekend social gatherings costing 50-100$, and I dont believe in having payments beyond a mortgage & the wifeys car.. I just choose to have quality shooting equipment.

My point, even tho I have good equipment, it still does not make me a good shooter. I get my butt handed to me by the guy with a remchester in a boyd brothers stock and the Savage guys.

I dont buy the "Its an equipment race" cry by some. Just cause you shoot crappy or inconsistant, its not necessarily the rifle's fault.. Maybe its the load, loading practices, or gawd forbid, the shooter...? Hmmmmm

So with that said, weather one is shooting sling, BR, smallbore, Garand, etc. The goal in my eyes is to have fun, strive to improve skillsets and to have fun & fellowship.. We shouldn't begruge anyone for what they bring to the line or the methods they choose to send lead down range..

Thanks for listening..

Rod

 

[effendude]

I got started in F-class back in 2006. I was a relatively green XC shooter. I even nicknamed myself Buffy because I sure made use of the buff area on the target. I had shot a few matches and participated in my club's weekly XC league where I learned the sport. A retired friend wintered down in the Dallas/FW area and invited several of us MN shooters down for a 3 day MR match. It was an F-class match hosted by Jeff Cochran. It was at a Army base West of D/FW but I forgot the name. I believe it is closed due to bullets landing off range now. I didn't know what F-class was and I didn't really care. This was an opportunity to get out of MN for a few days in February!

I brought my Ar-15 space gun. After three days of shooting, I had last place so thoroughly locked up, no one was going to beat me! I brought a proverbial knife to a gunfight. After shooting each day, many of the shooters went to a quanset hut tavern just outside the base for burgers and a Shiner Bock or two. Those of us from MN were amazed at the participation in the match, I recall well over 50 shooters from all over the USA. MN struggled with declining match attendance for years. It became obvious that F-class was the new shooting discipline that could bring and hold shooters in sport. We MN shooters decided right there that we needed to give F-class a try.

I was asked to organize a F-class league for weekly shooting to promote the sport at our home club. With help from a few key individuals, I got the program started. The league averaged 20 or so shooters the first year, and continued to grow each year after that. I truly didn't shoot the first five years of the league as it grew far beyond what anyone imagined it would. I became a fulltime match director. We have never had 60 shooters on a Monday night, but we have come darn close a few times. I also became the F-class chair for the state association to further promote the sport.

Some of these league shooters started pushing for F-class to be included in some of the MR matches held in MN. It was a long, slow battle over the past 6 years and we are not done yet. The first match where we shot with the sling shooters was a tough one. I over heard several of my friends? comment how much fun it was to kick the asses of these guys with scopes and all their fancy equipement. I agressively reminded these guys that they were not born HighMaster shooters and they had to learn their sport too. I also commented that at the rate they were going, in a few years they wouldn't have to shoot anymore, they could just mail each other the $3 in match winnings because there wouldn't be enough shooters to squad for a match. That quieted down the disparaging comments. Some may have the same attitude, but they don't verbalize it. They are amazed at the scores we post and how challenging the target is. I would like to think we have mutual respect for each other's discipline.

MN currently has nearly a 50/50 split between sling and F-class shooters at MR and LR matches. F-class continues to grow at a rapid pace bringing both new shooters and also allowing veteran shooters the opportunity to contunue shooting matches. It is a great pleasure to shoot next to some of these legendary shooters. Their experiences and stories make matches more fun.

I guess my point with all this is don't get discouraged by the attitudes of anyone who is negative. It doesn't matter whether the comments are equipment related, discipline related or performance related. The fact that you are out participating and enjoying the sport, whatever it is, is most important. There are far more guys with great attititudes than there are bad.

Scott

PS: Don't let Rod fool you. He used to have a boat, but he took the mariner's wheel off of the boat for his front rest! LOL!

 

[Keith Glasscock]

I agree with Rod. The equipment doesn't matter as much as the shooter and loader. If either of those folks is off, the game is over before it begins.

From my perspective, if I know my rifle is shooting well (and it normally does) I can look within for impacts outside of the X or 10 ring (depending on conditions). For example, it was choppy at 600 Tuesday night with a fishtailing tailwind that would suddenly reverse to a headwind. I dropped 2 points - one low when I misread the downrange flag (it tells me about the head/tailwind) and another at 3 when I didn't see the midrange flag switch before I fired. Typically, I can do the same at 1K. That is, tell why a shot went where it did.

I forgot to mention, I don't have any fancy reloading equipment either. I made my own annealing machine ($50), I have a second-hand RCBS press, Hornady dies, an RCBS electronic scale that is ~20 years old (given to me by a friend), an RCBS powder trickler that I modified to make it throw one kernel at a time, and a case tumbler that I got as a gift. Buck Rodgers it is not, but it works.

So my question is this: How can I get the results I get without any super-equipment? One has to be determined and ingenuitive if they want to compete on a budget. It just isn't that difficult.

The other key is to go out and shoot - make friends! Those friends are the same folks that help keep me in the game financially. They loan me tools (and I return the favor), split Hazmat charges, give me ideas for things I do and don't need to do, etc.

I don't have time or energy to envy others' equipment. It wouldn't change my reality if I had it. I hope everyone can see the perspective on this subject...

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Don't get the idea that I wouldn't have a custom rifle, and top of the line equipment if I could afford it. I like nice things as much as the other guy.

 

[wapiti25]

Any sport that gets divided is in a bad position. I see the flyfishermen not liking the bait guy's. Give the other guy his space to do his thing. This really comes home with gun ownership, I heard the bolt rifle hunters not understanding someone wanting to own an "assalt rifle". I have to think that when someone asks about a gun that I may not want to own, to be careful what I say. My pet thing is the auto loading deer rifles I'm a bolt action/falling block type hunter.

 

[MNFinn]

good posts by all. For me I'm planning to use F-Class to give me practice so I can push my personal envelop for hunting a little farther by getting more off season shooting time, and to have some fun with other shooters

 

[Hombre0321]

Not to mention the fact that there some people that are willing to invest TENS OF THOUSANDS of dollars and work full time at something the unwashed masses consider a "hobby" that we get to do when we can... Whether you know it or not, their are professional hobbyists. Not saying it's a bad thing, just saying they exist. People who throw themselves into a leisure activity with every resource they have and become completely absorbed in it. Long range shooting can become very centered around MONEY and how much you are willing to spend.

I like to see more matches at clubs that are kept at the "hobby" level. Whatever they are. Something fun that does not require a $7000 rifle to compete (not to mention a truckload of gear and Buck Rogers reloading lab).

I wish my club would have egg shoots. That sounds like a blast!!! I wanted to have a 200 yard egg shoot with small bore rifles. I think that would be great!!!

PS: Don't get me wrong I like precision gear as much as anyone!!! I like reloading with benchrest level technique, but I also realize that shooting is much harder than reloading...

This thread in the begining was taking on a tone I personally don't care much for. The " Fair" and "Level" speak never really goes anywhere.

Life itself is not fair and when has there ever been a "Level" playing field in anything? it seems there is always someone who wants to cast stones at those who are able to afford the better equipment ( what ever in hell that means). Or cast stones at those with the time and resources to be able to buy and spend the time shooting.

The fair deal makes me want to puke. How to you ever make "Wind" reading skills "Fair" or how to you make those folks who just have superior talant "Fair" How do you make it "Fair" when and old Fart like myself lays down on the mat next to a shooter like Michelle Lockhart a very nice young 15 year old shooter that has a write up on this site about shooting a match ( a 3X15 at a 1,000 yds) Clean or a 450 - 22X. It ain't Fair and it is never going to be fair--Face it!!!! That word Fair and the shooting sports should never be used in the same sentence. Don't like it the way it "HAS" to be go take up Marbles or something. No that wouldn't work someone may have a stronger thumb in Marbles thus making it not fair for those who only have regular thumbs----NOT Fair!!

As to exspensive equipment, I fall into that group. I have bought very good and sometimes expensive equipment. I spend as much time as I can at the range shooting to better myself. I "DO NOT" have that natural talent some do, Oh I can excell at the sport, but for me that means doing a lot of work. I am not afraid to do what ever work it takes to excell. If that includes Money so be it. Should I have to back-up to recieve an award? Should the cost of my rifle's and equipment means there should be an asterisk beside my name? I take shooting seriously, as a matter of fact I am that way about many of the things I do, I certainly don't owe anyone an apology for being that way.

Roland

 

[amlevin]

Speaking as a match director, F-Class has been the biggest factor in participation growth in decades. It is far from being just "mature" shooters, we get many new shooters in their 20's, 30's, and 40's coming into F-Class because it's a very simple and less equipment-intensive way to get started. Any basic rifle/scope combination and a sandbag or two will get you going in a mid-range match. I've seen a lot of Savage/Weaver setups do extremely well once the shooter learned the basics and some wind reading and that's a very affordable entry point.

Agree. In many ways shooting is going down the same road as auto racing. When I was in my early 20's (President Kennedy was still alive) one could knock the windows out of the family car, put a roll bar in it, and go racing on the local track. Today, unless you show up with a car sporting a $40 k engine you probably don't even make it through the qualifications. Seems to be the same for some shooting classes. F-Class is a refreshing change. Have seen some take a rifle like the Rem 700 5-R milspec out of the box and win in local matches.

As for "Mature Shooters", you're being kind. Some have referred to this class as the "O-F" Class, especially those of us who ARE Old Farts. For me, I hope to keep shooting right down to the last day. I'll probably be found propped over my rifle, looking like I'm waiting for the right wind, when it's time to lock up the gate.