expander in redding FL dies leaving striations on inside neck

[rockwind1]

so i lube up my case with unique case lube but it is hard to get any inside the neck, i have been expanding them (after the neck bushing re necks them down) and i notice little black vertical streaks inside the neck. they look just like the same streaks my mandrell leaves (i used it on new brass)

this is no big deal right? is it really necessary to lube up the inside?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

If youre using a bushing die get rid of the expander. Its counterproductive. If you must though lube the neck inside either with the dry graphite lube or die wax on a qtip

 

[BoydAllen]

First of all, you may find that there is an advantage to using an expander with unturned necks with a FL bushing die, but you may be using too small of a bushing. The reason that I say this is that you want the largest bushing that you can use and still have the expander do a little "work". With the proper match you are expanding .002 or less, and you can hardly feel it. If you need some lube inside of your necks, this works.

Size your neck without the expander, and then with. The difference should be minimal. With a mic. set it and then drag the neck through, retrying until you have the feel that you want, otherwise the 40 pitch threads are very likely to oval the neck as you take the measurement. It will spring back when you are done unless you get really carried away. For soft or springy situations setting and then dragging through is better.

 

[243winxb]

A RCBS nylon brush/lube can be used to clean and lube the inside of the necks.

With unturned necks, do use an expander with the correct bushing. There should be very light drag as the expander passes through the case necks.

See video http://www.whiddengunworks.com/product/expander-ball-kits-and-sets/

 

[Bart B.]

Lots of expander balls are not too smooth.

I've sanded down 31 caliber ones to the diameter needed. 1000 grit crocus cloth makes them very smooth.

About lubing inside case necks; some are applauded for doing it, others chastised. I've never found a need to.

 

[shoot4fun]

Leave the expander button in there, especially if necks are not turned on your brass. Use Redding Imperial Dry Lube. It takes away those little marks, makes sizing smoother and easier and (in my case) you may find it lessens those unexplainable flyers that you get from time to time. The other thing, but seems to be a much more expensive route, is to go with the Redding Titanium expander buttons.

 

[jlow]

A couple of points. First, expanders are useful but they do need polishing, get some fine polish at Ace Hardware.

Second, you MUST lube the inside of the neck if you are going to expand because if you don’t, you will get galling of the brass on your expander and that will scratch the neck of your case. Keep in mind that when you lube the neck, it is important to especially lube the entry point because if you only lube the inside, the entry area can gall. Best done with a cue tip dipped in Imperial sizing wax.

As it is, you already have galling on your expander and that will actually come off with the polish that you will use on the expander.

 

[Murray Brook]

In my 35 yrs of reloading I've used many different kinds of dies but never a bushing die. I understand why,and how they work. What I don't understand is why the need of an expander ball. I thought the reason behind bushing dies was to get rid of this thing that causes run-out and other problems, yet I see people still using them. If everything is measured out ,what is the need of them.

 

[rockwind1]

i have a expensive titanium mandrel from 21st century i think and it leaves the same black vertical streaks that i am calling striations.

i guess my real question is will it cause significant ES differences, i am looking for an Es of under 20. i am not a bench shooter

hi boyd, i am using a .289 bushing and the expander is pushing it back out to .290, i am feeling it pretty well when i am drawing the expander back up thru the neck, perhaps i should try a .290 bushing.

murray brook. i wondered too, after reading and being a newbie, the only things i can think of is to "push" the irregularities on the inside of the neck to the outside where they don't matter as much,,,and to save a step if you were using a mandrel afterwards to "set neck tension"

 

[Murray Brook]

That must be it,because some experienced people say use it others say not to. I figured if you were using the proper sized bushing for your neck thickness then neck tension would be good.

 

[243winxb]

push" the irregularities on the inside of the neck to the outside where they don't matter as much,

Works for me.

Easy to test with this

 

[dkhunt14]

i have a expensive titanium mandrel from 21st century i think and it leaves the same black vertical streaks that i am calling striations.

i guess my real question is will it cause significant ES differences, i am looking for an Es of under 20. i am not a bench shooter

If you have 20 ES, I don't think the expander is causing it. It's powder, or seating depth or annealing. Matt

 

[rockwind1]

If you have 20 ES, I don't think the expander is causing it. It's powder, or seating depth or annealing. Matt

fair enough, but i don't think it is powder, i am using the legendary fx120i

as far as seating depth, can you provide more detail? i am pretty darn sure they were all seated exactly the same cause my seater die didn't move or is there something else i am missing?

perhaps it's annealing, i don't have one, this is the second firing of the brass.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Just because you weigh powder on an fx120i doesnt guarantee you a good es. You can weigh a bad load all day and its still a bad load

 

[dkhunt14]

fair enough, but i don't think it is powder, i am using the legendary fx120i

as far as seating depth, can you provide more detail? i am pretty darn sure they were all seated exactly the same cause my seater die didn't move or is there something else

Some guns like it in the lands .005 to .010, some like it touching and some like jumps of .005 to .100.

It can also be the kind of powder. Certain guns like certain kinds.

It can also be the primer. Certain powders or certain cartridges prefer a certain primer.

That's what makes reloading a project, by finding the right combination. It would, Maybe help to know all the details of your cartridge and load.

Also just because you have an ES of 20 doesn't mean it wouldn't shoot good. I have had guns that had loads with ES of 2 to 5 five and they shot vertical at 1000 yards. The same gun with a ES of 10 to 20 would shoot 4 inch 10 shot groups at 1000 yards. Matt

 

[Cowtownup]

Does it look like this?

 

[rockwind1]

Does it look like this?

YEP! THAT'S IT.

how did you take such a good up close picture? my phone won't do that.

 

[rockwind1]

Just because you weigh powder on an fx120i doesnt guarantee you a good es. You can weigh a bad load all day and its still a bad load

right, very much understand (i think) but what i meant is that the weight of powder is pretty much as close as it is going to get and is repeatable. i've just removed the weight variable so now i am moving on to other variables

 

[Cowtownup]

Well, I haven't nailed this problem down yet but here is what I do know. I recently started using Wilson inline seater dies and a 21st century arbor press and these necks that I just shared a picture of require a TON of seating pressure... Quite honestly, I don't think I would have even picked up on the problem had I not started using an arbor press to seat bullets.

So the question is what causes this?

I use a Forster FL die with an expander button. The die takes the neck down about 2 thou below the size of the expander so Im not having to strain to get the button back through the neck, but its a little more than what some people call "just kissing the neck." However, the expander button is the only thing that touches the inside of that neck so I definitely can't rule it out as the problem. Another thing that I'm questioning here is that I use SS pins, a touch of lemishine and two squirts of dishwashing soap to clean brass with prior to the sizing step. To me, the white colored streaks appear to be "soap scum" in my opinion but I'm not sure. I've sized a ton of brass both 284 and 260 this same way and have noticed this before, but havent really paid attention until I felt the seating pressure on my arbor press. Sometimes I notice it and sometimes it doesn't show up and my seating pressure is fine. I wish I could give you a definite answer, but I am still trying to find it out myself.

 

[orbitup]

how did you take such a good up close picture? my phone won't do that.

I zoom in all the way and back the phone up until it's able to focus.