Long time reader, first time poster here.
First off, please bear with me as I have a TON of questions. I apologize if it gets lengthy but I am unable to definitively find answers to them all or how all the puzzle pieces fit together. I have searched the forum before, but have failed to find any definitive answers which is why I come to you now.
I have been loading for a while and have a basic understanding of the process, but recently upgraded equipment and am trying to develop more accurate loads to get started in bench rest competition for my bolt action .308. I picked up a competition neck sizing bushing die from Redding, the body die from Redding, and the ultra micrometer seating die from Forster. The bushing neck die is the variable that is throwing me off as I do not have any experience with this style of die.
I have always used a neck button, however that has gone away with the new dies. The more I read, the more I realize competition shooters don’t seem to use them at all.
1.) Is this simply because they might create a neck that is off-axis with relation to the rest of the case? Run out?
In my haste, I ordered the carbide button kit for the neck die, but am wondering if it is the best way to go moving forward. I see that a lot of people use a Sinclair 05-3000 expanding mandrel instead or a similar product from K&M. After a call to Redding, their tech told me that this step could also be accomplished by a neck turning pilot that forces dents out and resizes the ID as well.
2.) Is the intent of the expanding mandrels that they only be used to remove dented necks, or is the intent that you size every case, every time?
3.) Sort of along the same lines as question 2, is the intent with the bushing dies that you don't need to neck expand at all (unless there is a dent) and that after sizing the cases are ready for bullet seating?
4.) The Redding tech to me that using a neck turner to make the ID concentric correct also sizes the neck for seating. But doesn’t that defeat the purpose of selecting the correct bushing if you’re just going to change the ID, and thus the OD by expanding it on a neck turning pilot?
5.) The Forster site says that their neck turner pilot undersizes the neck ID to .0020 below the bullet diameter. So if you’re using this to control neck tension, it would seem to me that it defeats the point of using bushing dies, which is to control (and adjust) neck tension isn’t it?
In the past, I have used a neck turner to ensure uniform thickness. I have the Forster hand held outside turner. The bushing dies will make the OD of the case neck concentric--I understand that. If I am interpreting correctly, the idea is that you use the correct bushing to ensure neck OD is correct, thus the bullet will have the proper tension when seated.
6.) Is this why no expander ball is needed, because it is sizing the neck correctly in this step?
The second big part that I don't understand is that in the past I have resized the case before neck turning. If I’m not mistaken the resizing button basically forces the case ID to be concentric along some axis whether it is right or wrong. This is important because the neck turning pilot rides on this inside surface and shaves the OD so that it is also concentric in relation to the ID. Using the operation with an expander button, you should get a correct ID that is concentric, and an OD that is also concentric to the ID with consistent wall thickness all the way around.
With the new setup (bushing neck die) there is no expander ball in the middle and the neck die only forces the OD into concentricity. It then follows that because of varying wall thickness, the ID will likely have some run out present. This is an issue because it will create inconsistent clamping force on the bullet. So it stands to reason that this method would work best if the wall thickness was indeed consistent because this is the only way the concentric OD would drive a concentric ID as well. The problem with this is that the neck turning pilot (assumed to be perfectly concentric) is now riding on the ID which is not perfectly concentric due to varying wall thickness that exists in our non-perfect world. If the pilot is pushed into place, thus forcing the ID into concentricity, the OD that was just resized with the neck bushing dies will be forced out of concentricity (essentially undoing that operation completely). So this brings me to my next set of questions:
7.) Why neck turn on an OD that was concentric to begin with?
8.) Why even use bushing dies to force the OD into concentricity if it is to be undone by the neck turning operation?
9.) Wouldn’t you be better served by reaming the ID at that point?
The order of operations that I think it should be, but doesn’t necessarily make logical sense to me is:
a.) Full length body size (only if the shoulder needs to be pushed back)
b.) Neck expander mandrel (only if the neck is dented and won’t run through the size die correctly)
c.) Neck resize
d.) Neck turn
e.) OAL trim, chamfer, etc.
10.) Is this order correct, or where have I gone wrong?
Hopefully this all makes sense and you can help shed some light. I guess I don't truly understand the benefit an expanding mandrel vs a ball neck expander at this point, and how the neck turning fits in without undoing the neck sizing.
Thanks,
Max
First off, please bear with me as I have a TON of questions. I apologize if it gets lengthy but I am unable to definitively find answers to them all or how all the puzzle pieces fit together. I have searched the forum before, but have failed to find any definitive answers which is why I come to you now.
I have been loading for a while and have a basic understanding of the process, but recently upgraded equipment and am trying to develop more accurate loads to get started in bench rest competition for my bolt action .308. I picked up a competition neck sizing bushing die from Redding, the body die from Redding, and the ultra micrometer seating die from Forster. The bushing neck die is the variable that is throwing me off as I do not have any experience with this style of die.
I have always used a neck button, however that has gone away with the new dies. The more I read, the more I realize competition shooters don’t seem to use them at all.
1.) Is this simply because they might create a neck that is off-axis with relation to the rest of the case? Run out?
In my haste, I ordered the carbide button kit for the neck die, but am wondering if it is the best way to go moving forward. I see that a lot of people use a Sinclair 05-3000 expanding mandrel instead or a similar product from K&M. After a call to Redding, their tech told me that this step could also be accomplished by a neck turning pilot that forces dents out and resizes the ID as well.
2.) Is the intent of the expanding mandrels that they only be used to remove dented necks, or is the intent that you size every case, every time?
3.) Sort of along the same lines as question 2, is the intent with the bushing dies that you don't need to neck expand at all (unless there is a dent) and that after sizing the cases are ready for bullet seating?
4.) The Redding tech to me that using a neck turner to make the ID concentric correct also sizes the neck for seating. But doesn’t that defeat the purpose of selecting the correct bushing if you’re just going to change the ID, and thus the OD by expanding it on a neck turning pilot?
5.) The Forster site says that their neck turner pilot undersizes the neck ID to .0020 below the bullet diameter. So if you’re using this to control neck tension, it would seem to me that it defeats the point of using bushing dies, which is to control (and adjust) neck tension isn’t it?
In the past, I have used a neck turner to ensure uniform thickness. I have the Forster hand held outside turner. The bushing dies will make the OD of the case neck concentric--I understand that. If I am interpreting correctly, the idea is that you use the correct bushing to ensure neck OD is correct, thus the bullet will have the proper tension when seated.
6.) Is this why no expander ball is needed, because it is sizing the neck correctly in this step?
The second big part that I don't understand is that in the past I have resized the case before neck turning. If I’m not mistaken the resizing button basically forces the case ID to be concentric along some axis whether it is right or wrong. This is important because the neck turning pilot rides on this inside surface and shaves the OD so that it is also concentric in relation to the ID. Using the operation with an expander button, you should get a correct ID that is concentric, and an OD that is also concentric to the ID with consistent wall thickness all the way around.
With the new setup (bushing neck die) there is no expander ball in the middle and the neck die only forces the OD into concentricity. It then follows that because of varying wall thickness, the ID will likely have some run out present. This is an issue because it will create inconsistent clamping force on the bullet. So it stands to reason that this method would work best if the wall thickness was indeed consistent because this is the only way the concentric OD would drive a concentric ID as well. The problem with this is that the neck turning pilot (assumed to be perfectly concentric) is now riding on the ID which is not perfectly concentric due to varying wall thickness that exists in our non-perfect world. If the pilot is pushed into place, thus forcing the ID into concentricity, the OD that was just resized with the neck bushing dies will be forced out of concentricity (essentially undoing that operation completely). So this brings me to my next set of questions:
7.) Why neck turn on an OD that was concentric to begin with?
8.) Why even use bushing dies to force the OD into concentricity if it is to be undone by the neck turning operation?
9.) Wouldn’t you be better served by reaming the ID at that point?
The order of operations that I think it should be, but doesn’t necessarily make logical sense to me is:
a.) Full length body size (only if the shoulder needs to be pushed back)
b.) Neck expander mandrel (only if the neck is dented and won’t run through the size die correctly)
c.) Neck resize
d.) Neck turn
e.) OAL trim, chamfer, etc.
10.) Is this order correct, or where have I gone wrong?
Hopefully this all makes sense and you can help shed some light. I guess I don't truly understand the benefit an expanding mandrel vs a ball neck expander at this point, and how the neck turning fits in without undoing the neck sizing.
Thanks,
Max
