Expander balls...why not remove them?

[Scalloper]

When I went to bushing dies I started buying expander mandrills for those cartridges. I just order the mandrills three thousands under bullet diameter allowing for one thousands spring bak and getting two thousands neck tension. I never liked pulling the expander ball up through the casing. I always had varying pressures needed to pull the expander ball and now I seldom need to trim as much. It seemed to me that pushing a expander mandrel was by far smoother. After checking my records i can see that in all 4 cases these are the best shooting cartridges I own.
I only use my rifles for hunting and shooting paper to extend my effective range for hunting. So I am not expecting .02s, anything .7 or better is great for me.
I have been loading for 26 years. I quickly removed my decapping pin and decap with a Frankfort tool. I hated getting the carbon in/on my press or dies.
So why use any expander balls at all?

 

[WSnyder]

I’ve never used the expander ball ever in a bushing die. Why would you?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

No need for them in a bushing die

 

[6.5 forever]

No need for them in a bushing die

Dusty is right

 

[Remote Impact]

Expander ball sizes the inside of the neck to proper diameter. If you use brass of only one neck thickness, a bushing is all you need. Many people go to the range and expect to load any brass they pick up with the die as it came from the factory. Because different brands and lots of brass can vary significantly in neck thickness, a die which sizes one case perfectly might not size one with a thinner neck enough to give any neck tension at all. A die that sizes the neck a lot and then expands it to a consistent internal diameter allows you to use different neck thicknesses with minimal tools (i.e. no bushings or expanders), though you may experience the problems you stated.

 

[Badhabit]

I removed all of mine and use mandrel to fine tune neck tension. I have a small fortune invested in mandrels and imagine when I pass away the old lady will probably throw them in the garbage.

 

[Ray123]

I use an a carbide expander ball in a FL bushing die...so that it just barley, but, consistently sizes the inside diameter of the neck... when ya dont turn neck ODs. But then that's not the usual case ...it depends on the cartridge and what the expectations of accuracy are for that particular platform..."mag dump" ammo ...or something more refined...so sometimes there is an expander ball in the die and sometimes there ain't. I like options to fit my various needs, for the desired outcome.

 

[Bill Norris]

I remove all of mine and separately run a mandrel .002 under bullet dia in the necks after the FL bushing die.

 

[BoydAllen]

If you are using mandrels for your final sizing step then there is no need for expander balls. On the other hand, if you are not and are not turning necks, there may be some advantage in uniformity that comes from closely coordinating bushing size with expander ball use so that the expander is barely felt as it passes through the neck. If the right size bushing is used, there will be no problem with increased runout of the case, and there may be an advantage of more uniform neck ID and roundness. This is not a guess. I have done it. Another good way to make straight ammo with unturned necks is to do two stage sizing, sizing the necks first with a Lee Collet Die, and then following up with a properly set body die. I have had good results doing it this way as have others that I suggested it to.

 

[WSnyder]

Another good way to make straight ammo with unturned necks is to do two stage sizing, sizing the necks first with a Lee Collet Die, and then following up with a properly set body die. I have had good results doing it this way as have others that I suggested it to.

I do this as well on a couple with unturned necks. I agree it works well and another way to get there. I tried it after Phil ? "4Mesh" on BRC noted he was doing this way back.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Either approach can work when set up properly (mandrel or expander ball). The primary difference between an expander ball and a mandrel is that the expander ball is pulled through the neck from the inside whereas the mandrel is pushed down into the neck from the outside. If it is not set up correctly and of the correct diameter for the neck wall thickness of the brass, the use of expander ball can distort the case neck, thereby inducing runout or lack of concentricity. I personally find that it is difficult, if not almost impossible, to induce runout with a quality mandrel/die. The downside is that using a mandrel requires a second step in the reloading process, whereas the use of an expander ball occurs concurrently with the bushing, so it's a little less work. I remove the expander ball from all my dies bushing dies prior to use, but I'm sure there are plenty of folks that use the expander ball and are completely satisfied with the results.



BTW:


Mandrel - these work very well for sizing case necks




Mandrill - these do not like it at all when you try to use them to size case necks.




Sorry - I couldn't restrain myself.

 

[1shot]

No need for them in a bushing die

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This

 

[dgeesaman]

No need for them in a bushing die

No need in a non bushing die either, if you have an appropriate neck dia in the die.

One very specific place where the ball is helpful is reforming brass. I was messing around and made some .222 brass from .223 brass. (I did it in two steps fwiw). The expander ball seems pretty important to keeping the shoulder from collapsing.

 

[markm87]

Expander balls are horrible. I never use them. Bushings were nearly as annoying in my set up. Body Dies and Collet neck sizers have been mostly pain free for me.

 

[JSH]

No need in a non bushing die either, if you have an appropriate neck dia in the die.

One very specific place where the ball is helpful is reforming brass. I was messing around and made some .222 brass from .223 brass. (I did it in two steps fwiw). The expander ball seems pretty important to keeping the shoulder from collapsing.

?
Can’t wrap my head around how the expander keeps the shoulder from collapsing. FYI I did the same thing with 223 to 222 a while back.
I took all the “guts” out of 223 and 222 dies. I would get a wrinkle in the shoulder on some, fired brass. I went with some virgin and it was way less of a problem. I then trimmed to length and ran them over a proper mandrel. Neck wall thickness was OK so I didn’t have to turn any.

 

[nakneker]

I’ve been using mandrels to set tension. Remove the expander ball from the die, then use a mandrel for neck tension with a mandrel .002-.003 under your bullet size, I brush the inside of the necks with a nylon brush on the prep center, seat and shoot. The nylon brush step may be be trivial but my groups tightened up with fired brass. Made no difference on new brass.

If your using an expander ball take a length measurement before and after, then take a look at concentricity if you have the ability. Those two things made me switch over to mandrels. I stopped using expander balls on my long range ammo. Still use them on pistol, lever action ammo or most of my AR ammo.

 

[dgeesaman]

?
Can’t wrap my head around how the expander keeps the shoulder from collapsing. FYI I did the same thing with 223 to 222 a while back.
I took all the “guts” out of 223 and 222 dies. I would get a wrinkle in the shoulder on some, fired brass. I went with some virgin and it was way less of a problem. I then trimmed to length and ran them over a proper mandrel. Neck wall thickness was OK so I didn’t have to turn any.

Not to get off track but my first pass bumped the shoulder about halfway down.

The expander ball seemed helpful to pull the neck back out and leave the neck-shoulder junction in good contact with the die.

Second pass bumped the rest of the way down. No distortions or collapsed shoulders, but I only tested a handful.

David

 

[Webster]

When I went to bushing dies I started buying expander mandrills for those cartridges. I just order the mandrills three thousands under bullet diameter allowing for one thousands spring bak and getting two thousands neck tension. I never liked pulling the expander ball up through the casing. I always had varying pressures needed to pull the expander ball and now I seldom need to trim as much. It seemed to me that pushing a expander mandrel was by far smoother. After checking my records i can see that in all 4 cases these are the best shooting cartridges I own.
I only use my rifles for hunting and shooting paper to extend my effective range for hunting. So I am not expecting .02s, anything .7 or better is great for me.
I have been loading for 26 years. I quickly removed my decapping pin and decap with a Frankfort tool. I hated getting the carbon in/on my press or dies.
So why use any expander balls at all?

Never liked the idea of a ball on a long rod with no real alignment being pulled thru the neck. I FL size with bushing dies. Both my varmint hunting rifles with Krieger barrels shoot under 0.400". Accuracy is mostly a good barrel and bullets your barrel likes. Shot my 6BR for over 5 years before I found out the 60 gr Sierra Varminter shot better than match grade bullets in my rifle. Not to keen on mandrels either. I have no proof just an opinion. Mandrel alignment is determined by how it lines up in the press threads. Before you tighten the nut you can wiggle the mandrel a lot. Review Erik Cortina's video on sizing. I think he uses a bushing die without an expander button or mandrels. Even if I am wrong I am happy with 2 rifles that shoot under 0.400". I have shot a few groups in the 1s.

 

[dannyjbiggs]

One can significantly reduce the purchase price of "custom sizing dies" by omitting the complete expander ball assembly up front, which omits the need for any labor/cost for threading in the top of the sizing die.

 

[46and2]

If anyone is using Lee dies, you can install their Universal decapping rod instead of their expander ball, then expand necks with a mandrel.
This saves an extra step to deprime.