Expander ball

[gaboon]

What are the pros and cons of FL sizing using the expander ball or not? No bushings die.

 

[stool]

neck bushings or no neck bushing ??

pull thru expanders are notorious for pulling necks out of alignment.
often it is the press and or the die set up

 

[K22]

For the ultimate target grade competitive reloads, I would opt for the bushing types dies such the ones offered by Redding so you can more precisely control bullet tension.

However for me, a long range varmint / predator hunter in which accuracy is also very important, I'm able to produce high quality reloads using a standard RCBS dies that employs a standard expander ball. I set the die to bump the shoulder back .002" (bolt rifles) and use a rubber "O" ring under the expander ball / deprimer assembly so the assembly "floats" which helps align it to reduce run out. I also set the seating depth of the bullet in the seating die to give me the optimum accuracy for each rifle.

My high grade rifles produce groups in the 1/4" range using reloads prepared with these dies. (I have one rifle with a Douglas match barrel that shoots in the sub 1/4" range.)

So the answer to your question would depend on your intended purpose. I found that standard dies, if used properly, work quite well for my purposes.

 

[jo191145]

What are the pros and cons of FL sizing using the expander ball or not? No bushings die.

A standard off the shelf non bushing die without expander may give you as much as .020" neck tension.

You either need a bushing die or have one custom honed.

 

[wooger]

Boyd Allen has answered this question better than anyone else as far as I'm concerned. A simple search of this forum should yield the desired result.

 

[amlevin]

I have changed to Forster Sizing dies so I can use the expander ball without making a "crooked" case neck.

These dies have the expander ball mounted high enough that all but the last little bit of the neck remains in the neck portion of the die while being expanded.

For most sizing of fired cases I use the Forster Neck Size/Shoulder Bump Bushing Die. I use a bushing the sizes the necks (all turned for uniformity) just enough so the expander ball is just barely expanding the neck. This gives me a lot more uniform neck tensions than bushing only. I used to use bushing only and then ran an expander mandrel through the case necks for uniformity but found that the Forster with expander ball did just as good a job in a single pass.

For what it's worth, not all expander "balls" are the same. Redding has a floating carbide ball available that seems to give pretty straight necks. Hornady has a "football" shaped expander that also works well.

For some reason most expander balls are rougher than one would expect for a piece that has to slide smoothly through a case neck. I always end up polishing whatever I get.

 

[langenc]

For the ultimate target grade competitive reloads, I would opt for the bushing types dies such the ones offered by Redding so you can more precisely control bullet tension.

However for me, a long range varmint / predator hunter in which accuracy is also very important, I'm able to produce high quality reloads using a standard RCBS dies that employs a standard expander ball. I set the die to bump the shoulder back .002" (bolt rifles) and use a rubber "O" ring under the expander ball / deprimer assembly so the assembly "floats" which helps align it to reduce run out. I also set the seating depth of the bullet in the seating die to give me the optimum accuracy for each rifle.

My high grade rifles produce groups in the 1/4" range using reloads prepared with these dies. (I have one rifle with a Douglas match barrel that shoots in the sub 1/4" range.)

So the answer to your question would depend on your intended purpose. I found that standard dies, if used properly, work quite well for my purposes.

K22-I wish you would expand on the procedure described in para #2 above. Exactly how do I set up my dies to work that way?? Esp the part about the "O" ring placement.
Thanks

 

[BoydAllen]

If you are stuck using a one piece (no bushing) FL die, in my experience, if you do not use the expander when you size, lubricate the inside of the necks, and use an expander die and mandrel (of the type commonly used to prepare cases for neck turning), your cases will probably be straighter than if the expander ball was used....at least it worked out that way for me. Just remember to remove the lube afterwords.

 

[watercam]

FWIW I believe bushing dies work the brass the least and help make the brass last longer. I believe this will save time and money with fewer steps involved thus paying for the added cost of the die. That's what I told MY wife.
The O-ring trick works like this:
Place an 1/8" O-ring that will fit over the die body between the lock ring and the top of your press. Turn the die down so that the O-ring is compressed some minimal amount (I lubricate the O-ring with silicone grease and turn 1/4 turn past just touching), mark the press and die with a sharpie or some such so that they will align the same way each time. You will need to adjust the die position so that it bumps the shoulder back .001-.002" (or less). In other words, you will need to start from scratch but it is well worth it I feel.
Do the same with your seating die.
Concentricity of both sizing and seating improve dramatically.

 

[searcher]

In a semi-auto, it is almost a necessity in most guns as the brass gets beat up - sometimes pretty bad from ejector dings, etc. In a bolt gun, especially those with no ejector - such as in a bench rest gun or varminter, you brass isn't going to be made any straighter by a sizing die than it came out of the gun after firing (unless your chamber is really hosed up - in which case it makes little matter). Running this "perfect" brass through a die that has an expander ball rod out of exact alignment with the center of the die is going to tweak your necks out of being perfectly centered - thus your bullet will not be in alignment with the center axis of the bore. As we know, this degrades accuracy. Using an expander ball won't ruin accuracy, as a general rule - but if it is not aligned perfectly - it will create more problems than it solves. If you forego the use of the expander ball in a standard "non-bushing" die, you will likely find that you will have more neck tension than without the use of the expander ball. Sometimes much more than is desired. Regardless, "too much" neck tension is usually much more forgiving than a crooked neck. Going to the neck dies just gives you more tension control, with the added plus of the neck bushing being able to float a few thousandths side to side in the die to allow the bushing to find center without side-to-side pressure. Make no mistake - a properly aligned expander ball can do just fine. It is also very easy to knock most of them out of alignment when using a traditional press and running your sizing stroke without the case first being in the center of the shell holder. If you break a decap pin - you better check your alignment because it is probably significantly off. Also, rather than using an o-ring, I just back off my die 1/4" (not in depth - just die movement) so that it is not locked into position. I recheck placement by screwing down to lock position , then back off 1/4" every ten rounds sized - just to be sure it did not wander on me. I find, for me and on my press, this method provides more concentric rounds than the o-ring method. Bottom line, expander balls work well for the intended prupose when aligned. For serious target work - leave them out and use a Sinclair mandrel in one of their expander body dies as another suggested - or just leave it out and use nothing. If you have a Redding die - do get the floating button for it!

 

[jo191145]

FWIW I believe bushing dies work the brass the least and help make the brass last longer. I believe this will save time and money with fewer steps involved thus paying for the added cost of the die. That's what I told MY wife.
The O-ring trick works like this:
Place an 1/8" O-ring that will fit over the die body between the lock ring and the top of your press. Turn the die down so that the O-ring is compressed some minimal amount (I lubricate the O-ring with silicone grease and turn 1/4 turn past just touching), mark the press and die with a sharpie or some such so that they will align the same way each time. You will need to adjust the die position so that it bumps the shoulder back .001-.002" (or less). In other words, you will need to start from scratch but it is well worth it I feel.
Do the same with your seating die.
Concentricity of both sizing and seating improve dramatically.

Question
Isn't it easier to put a smaller o ring between the sizer die body and the decapping stem lock nut? Same goes for a standard seater die.
This allows your sizer to lock into place the same every time but allows the decapper/expander to flex to center.
On a standard seater it sure makes adjustments easier when running seating depth tests. There's no need for the seating plug to ever be fully locked,or unlocked. It can simply be adjusted with however much force you feel necessary by tightening onto the o ring.

Just wondering why others do it different.

 

[K22]

For the ultimate target grade competitive reloads, I would opt for the bushing types dies such the ones offered by Redding so you can more precisely control bullet tension.

However for me, a long range varmint / predator hunter in which accuracy is also very important, I'm able to produce high quality reloads using a standard RCBS dies that employs a standard expander ball. I set the die to bump the shoulder back .002" (bolt rifles) and use a rubber "O" ring under the expander ball / deprimer assembly so the assembly "floats" which helps align it to reduce run out. I also set the seating depth of the bullet in the seating die to give me the optimum accuracy for each rifle.

My high grade rifles produce groups in the 1/4" range using reloads prepared with these dies. (I have one rifle with a Douglas match barrel that shoots in the sub 1/4" range.)

So the answer to your question would depend on your intended purpose. I found that standard dies, if used properly, work quite well for my purposes.

K22-I wish you would expand on the procedure described in para #2 above. Exactly how do I set up my dies to work that way?? Esp the part about the "O" ring placement.
Thanks

I place the O ring (with an ID about the same diameter as the rod of the assembly) under the nut of the expander ball / deprimer assembly and screw into the sizing die, finger tight adjusting it at it highest possible height just enough to punch out the spent primer. The assembly will float and self align when passing through the neck which helps minimize pulling the neck out of alignment.

I don't use an O ring under the lock ring of the sizing die body like some do.

 

[BoydAllen]

While I agree that the O rings help with case crookedness that comes from alignment issues, and have used Lee die lock rings for that benefit, the major issue with expanders and one piece dies is that the ID of the neck portion of the typical off the shelf die is way too small. This means that the expander has so much work to do, so that the amount of pull created in the process, even with lubing the inside of necks, exceeds the yield strength of the brass at the shoulder, and since the shoulder is not perfectly symmetrical as to thickness or the metal as to yield point, one side gives a little before the other, and by this case necks are cocked with respect to the bodies of their cases. The reason that I recommended the approach that I did in my previous post in this thread is that I determined experimentally that it worked as stated...good old trial and error. I tried it both ways, being as careful as possible, and one way worked better than the other, by a significant amount.

 

[amlevin]

The assembly will float and self align when passing through the neck which helps minimize pulling the neck out of alignment.

I don't use an O ring under the lock ring of the sizing die body like some do.

I don't believe that all that many crooked case necks are caused by depriming rods or expander balls that aren't allowed to float as much as they are by uneven case neck wall thickness variations.

The rod is flexible enough to "float" enough on it's own. When a ball is pulled thought he neck with one side thicker than the other, the thin side will yield more thus a "crooked case neck".

 

[Joe R]

gaboon said: What are the pros and cons of FL sizing using the expander ball or not? No bushings die.

Stool said: pull thru expanders are notorious for pulling necks out of alignment. often it is the press and or the die set up

Speaking from personal experience of having tried for a long time to make a similar setup work, all I can say, you're screwed. Save yourself a lot of frustration and find a way to buy yourself a Redding S type bushing die and get rid of the expander ball. If your case neck are damaged you should be using an expander mandrel or tossing the case altogether. Accuracy and neck concentricity are inseparable.

 

[K22]

The assembly will float and self align when passing through the neck which helps minimize pulling the neck out of alignment.

I don't use an O ring under the lock ring of the sizing die body like some do.

I don't believe that all that many crooked case necks are caused by depriming rods or expander balls that aren't allowed to float as much as they are by uneven case neck wall thickness variations.

The rod is flexible enough to "float" enough on it's own. When a ball is pulled thought he neck with one side thicker than the other, the thin side will yield more thus a "crooked case neck".

I basically agree but if you want to stay with a conventional sizing die the O ring can help at least that's what I experienced measuring run out with and without. In some cases there was no change, in others cases it was slight to significant. Since it doesn't hurt to use it, I adopted using it all the time to gain whatever improvement it had to offer.

The O ring under the locking ring of the die is probably better (See riflemansjournal.blogspot.com) but I had trouble obtaining uniform shoulder bumps since I reload for multiple rifles in some calibers thus readjusting the die became too cumbersome for me.

In no way am I suggesting that a conventional die is equal to the bushing dies but I'm been able to achieve good results using conventional dies that are adjusted properly for headspace using the a polished expander ball and O ring. If you already have conventional dies, I wouldn't automatically reject them without working with them to determine what kind of results you can achieve. If you are just starting out and deciding which dies to purchase and desire the most precise reloads possible then by all means I'd opt for the bushing dies.

 

[snakepit]

If you are stuck using a one piece (no bushing) FL die, in my experience, if you do not use the expander when you size, lubricate the inside of the necks, and use an expander die and mandrel (of the type commonly used to prepare cases for neck turning), your cases will probably be straighter than if the expander ball was used....at least it worked out that way for me. Just remember to remove the lube afterwords.

If you used the Imperial Application Media with Dry Neck Lube to lube the inside of the neck do you still need to clean this from the inside of the neck.

Also, I agree with your use of an expander die and mandrel.

 

[Joe R]

Are you ready to make the next step towards accuracy by turning necks?

gaboon said: What are the pros and cons of FL sizing using the expander ball or not? No bushings die.

Everyone is dancing around the core subject of neck concentricity. Fact is that most brass that I have tried, a very small percentage of it has concentric necks in a virgin state, none do after the first firing, including the much adored Lapua. For most people it's "Good enough", for some it isn't. The few that want accurate ammo congregate here, that's why it is called "Accurate Shooter". The real question really is: Are you ready to make the next step towards accuracy by turning necks?

As long as the necks aren't concentric all this talk of expander ball, O rings and lubrication is really masking the main problem.

I remember when I first saw an AGI video of neck turning and saying "That's crazy, I'll never do that." Well after I tried everything else and failed then I started to turn necks badly, but then learned to do it properly. Shooting is much more fun now.

 

[BoydAllen]

Years ago, I built my first rifle that had the sole purpose of shooting groups at the range, that was one of the best moves that I have made in my shooting hobby, because it gave me a bright line of separation between it and my rifles that were for field use. For the latter, in the case of my varmint rifles, I would do what I needed to tune their factory barrels to around 3/8" accuracy with unturned necks and call it good. I think that this thread falls into that area. On the other hand, for my bench rifles, ( I have expanded my inventory since that first one.) I have custom components, tight necked chambers, turn necks, and my expectations are considerably higher. Getting back to my varmint rifles, some are better than others, but they all will shoot comfortably under half inch, and that is all that I need from them, so after I get that, on a reliable basis, I stop torturing myself, recognize the limits of what I am working with, and put them away to be taken out only for field shooting, at critters. On the other hand, my bench rifles get a continual workout, as I try to learn all of the secrets to getting the most out of their fancier components. From these I expect groups no larger than the twos, except during load workup, and pending good operator technique, and correct flag interpretation, I strive for ones, and the very occasional zero, but the latter are exceedingly rare. My point is that it is a good idea to recognize the limits of what you are working with, and be happy when you reach them, or in the case of a factory rifle that has been bedded properly and had the benefit of a good load workup, if it is not where you want it to be, sell and move on. If you are shooting over flags, from a good rest setup, off of a sturdy bench, on a good day, and you have done all of the work on the rifle and load that can reasonably be done. What you see on the target will probably not improve significantly, and it will either satisfy you or it will not. Either way, there is little point in wearing out the barrel with the expectation of significant improvement.

 

[bigedp51]

The other day I was resizing some 30-06 cases for my M1 Garand and in the middle of this operation I removed the FL die to punch out some pistol primers. When I installed the full length die again my neck runout was running over .005 and I said WTF and scratched my head because it was well under .002 before I removed the die.

I had a rubber o-ring under the lock nut on the expander button and some how after taking the die off and putting it back on the press the lock nut was tightened. I backed off the lock nut and gave it more floating room and the runout was reduced to the variation in neck thickness.

Moral of story, a runout gauge and a neck thickness gauge will tell you a lot about your dies, your brass and what your doing wrong with your expander button. :-[

Now excuse me, I have to get back to my flower arranging......... :