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Evaluating precision of your rifle

Just a question to create a little discussion on a boring quarantine day. Now this is really for the average shooters but i imagine it works for everyone.

What i do to evaluate my rifle and load I shoot 5 five shot.groups on the same target and average them. That way I count all the groups including any that I don't really like. Try to pick a day with good conditions where wind is not the deciding factor. That 5 group average pretty well tells me what I can expect.in the future. Now they don't have to be shot back to back in fact they don't even have to be shot the same day. Give you barrel time to cool and even clean if you want.to.

How do you do it.
 
I do it pretty well like you posted. Take the average of 5 five shot groups with the same best load. For my hunting rifles I use 3 shot groups as an average. Seems to give me a good idea of where the rifle and I stand on the load.
 
Just a question to create a little discussion on a boring quarantine day. Now this is really for the average shooters but i imagine it works for everyone.

What i do to evaluate my rifle and load I shoot 5 five shot.groups on the same target and average them. That way I count all the groups including any that I don't really like. Try to pick a day with good conditions where wind is not the deciding factor. That 5 group average pretty well tells me what I can expect.in the future. Now they don't have to be shot back to back in fact they don't even have to be shot the same day. Give you barrel time to cool and even clean if you want.to.

How do you do it.

The downfall of this method is that you are moving the POA/POI within your sample. A 5x5 is not nearly as instructive as a single 25-shot group all shot to the same POA.

When we speak of precision, we really mean what is our statistical confidence that our points of impact will fall within some distance from the point of aim. The military uses the Circular Error Probable idea as the circle that will contain 50% of the points. It's a circle that represents the median error from the point of aim.


As a shooter there are two ways to use the interrelation of confidence and group size. You can either fix the confidence first and then assess group size to that confidence level. Or you can fix a size reference first, then assess the confidence in those terms. But here's the key thing: WITHOUT BOTH DEFINED YOU CANNOT COMPARE.

The reason I took up midrange shooting was because I wanted real data on the actual precision of my rifle and loads. On an NRA target of known scoring rings, I can easily know this data. If I shoot a 200-14x on a sling face, I know with a 20 shot sample that 14/20 are ~sub-moa, so this is 80% confidence. A higher score might take me up to 88% or 92% confidence as X count rises. And in this case, it was 100% confidence of sub-two MOA. But that's only a sample size of 20 shots. Unless you are agg 600 with regularity, you don't have that 100% confidence in reality.

The more difficult method would be to calculate the size of the rings that would contain 90% or 95% or 50% of your shots, or whatever it is you want to use for reference. Either way is valid because it contains both the essential elements of confidence value and error value (group size).

I'm fairly certain that at one point or another, almost everyone on this board as fired a particularly satisfying bughole in the 2s or less. But, given enough shots and attempts, ANY RIFLE can and will do this. It just might take several thousand groups for one to do it or a single attempt for a very excellent rifle.

This is why group size is not only part of the picture, but it's probably the less important part. Without sample size and demonstrated confidence values, the group sizes themselves are next to meaningless. This is why those who point to a single five shot (or worse, three shot) group as demonstrating a rifle's capability are kidding themselves first, and us second.
 
The downfall of this method is that you are moving the POA/POI within your sample. A 5x5 is not nearly as instructive as a single 25-shot group all shot to the same POA.

When we speak of precision, we really mean what is our statistical confidence that our points of impact will fall within some distance from the point of aim. The military uses the Circular Error Probable idea as the circle that will contain 50% of the points. It's a circle that represents the median error from the point of aim.


As a shooter there are two ways to use the interrelation of confidence and group size. You can either fix the confidence first and then assess group size to that confidence level. Or you can fix a size reference first, then assess the confidence in those terms. But here's the key thing: WITHOUT BOTH DEFINED YOU CANNOT COMPARE.

The reason I took up midrange shooting was because I wanted real data on the actual precision of my rifle and loads. On an NRA target of known scoring rings, I can easily know this data. If I shoot a 200-14x on a sling face, I know with a 20 shot sample that 14/20 are ~sub-moa, so this is 80% confidence. A higher score might take me up to 88% or 92% confidence as X count rises. And in this case, it was 100% confidence of sub-two MOA. But that's only a sample size of 20 shots. Unless you are agg 600 with regularity, you don't have that 100% confidence in reality.

The more difficult method would be to calculate the size of the rings that would contain 90% or 95% or 50% of your shots, or whatever it is you want to use for reference. Either way is valid because it contains both the essential elements of confidence value and error value (group size).

I'm fairly certain that at one point or another, almost everyone on this board as fired a particularly satisfying bughole in the 2s or less. But, given enough shots and attempts, ANY RIFLE can and will do this. It just might take several thousand groups for one to do it or a single attempt for a very excellent rifle.

This is why group size is not only part of the picture, but it's probably the less important part. Without sample size and demonstrated confidence values, the group sizes themselves are next to meaningless. This is why those who point to a single five shot (or worse, three shot) group as demonstrating a rifle's capability are kidding themselves first, and us second.

Now i can agree with you that a 25 shot group has a much better chance of showing a much clearer pic of the true dispersion of the rifle. Reality is most shooters can't mantain concentration for a 5.shot.group much less 25. Also most rifles would be showing the effects of heat before 25 shots were complete. Of course you would.move your POI away from your POA and you could take breaks and let you and the rifle rest.a while. But 5 five shot groups are so much prettier than one big ragged hole.
 
Just a question to create a little discussion on a boring quarantine day. Now this is really for the average shooters but i imagine it works for everyone.

What i do to evaluate my rifle and load I shoot 5 five shot.groups on the same target and average them. That way I count all the groups including any that I don't really like. Try to pick a day with good conditions where wind is not the deciding factor. That 5 group average pretty well tells me what I can expect.in the future. Now they don't have to be shot back to back in fact they don't even have to be shot the same day. Give you barrel time to cool and even clean if you want.to.

How do you do it.
For any rifle where I’m not going to be constantly adjusting the tune, I have a target with an 8-block of benchrest bullseyes and I shoot four of those with five shot groups. Avoid wind, avoid mirage. Cloudy, barely misting rainy days are fun. For rimfire that’s quite a reasonable test and the quantity gives me some assurance of the consistency of the ammo.

For centerfire that could get salty especially when it’s a barrel burner cartridge. With centerfire you’ll know the accuracy during load development based on how repeatable a good load plays out. You don’t need to run 25 rounds of a good load just to prove it over and over.
 
No, no, first I rule out any group with an excuse for a flyer that I can think of. Then there's none of that "averaging" nonsense. I go with the best 5-shot group shot.

This particular 204 is a "one-eighth MOA rifle." ;)

Looks like your 204 is a real shooter! As long as you don't oil the barrel, lol.
 
Now i can agree with you that a 25 shot group has a much better chance of showing a much clearer pic of the true dispersion of the rifle. Reality is most shooters can't mantain concentration for a 5.shot.group much less 25. Also most rifles would be showing the effects of heat before 25 shots were complete. Of course you would.move your POI away from your POA and you could take breaks and let you and the rifle rest.a while. But 5 five shot groups are so much prettier than one big ragged hole.
True statements all around. I didn't say it was easy. But if I'm testing, I want that test to have meaning, so I'll try to find a way to make it work, if that means breaks or what have you.

Ever hear that old joke about having 25 years of experience vs having 5 years of experience five times? It's sort of like that.

Here's a key takeaway: we've all had strings with a clean but not a 600 agg. Now, if that 20 shot sample of 10-rings (100% confidence) is STILL too small a sample to reflect reality (agg <600), then what does that mean for 10 shot groups or five shot groups?

There's probably some merit in having the same variables at work at play as you'd have during a match. If you only get 20 min to shoot a slow fire string, then taking longer than 20 min to shoot a test string is probably not a good idea. Yes, you might be heating barrel up and "skewing" your testing. But you're doing in the same way you would during a match, so I think that's a good thing.
 
Now i can agree with you that a 25 shot group has a much better chance of showing a much clearer pic of the true dispersion of the rifle. Reality is most shooters can't mantain concentration for a 5.shot.group much less 25. Also most rifles would be showing the effects of heat before 25 shots were complete. Of course you would.move your POI away from your POA and you could take breaks and let you and the rifle rest.a while. But 5 five shot groups are so much prettier than one big ragged hole.
25 shot groups would be waste of barrel unless maybe your shooting 25 shot groups at a match. If you think 25 is better than 5 I guess 100 shot group would really be the answer? Makes no sense to me. Of course if you shoot a 2000 shot group you might have the true dispersion of that particular barrel What say you? Or you could just go to some matches and then you will find the true percision of your rifle with the guy on the trigger in the available condition. That's really where the rubber meets the road.
 
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Answered a very similar post awhile back , and my response hasn't changed . A 20 shot string at 600 yrds will tell you all you need to know about a rifles consistency , and accuracy . Precision however ; Is another matter . With many variables coming into play .
 
I am convinced that the most recent rifle I bought will not shoot. I have tried everything I know and the advice given here on the forums and it will do 1 MOA at best, often not as good. I have several rifles that are 1/2 MOA shooters without much fuss but this one is driving me crazy
 
I am convinced that the most recent rifle I bought will not shoot. I have tried everything I know and the advice given here on the forums and it will do 1 MOA at best, often not as good. I have several rifles that are 1/2 MOA shooters without much fuss but this one is driving me crazy

What is it ?
 

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