Evaluating Good vs. Bad Bullet Lots of bullets

[antunRC]

I hope I’m not opening a can of worms here… What’s your opinion on good and bad bullet lots? No bullet manufacturer is completely immune to producing a bad lot. The real question is: how do you recognize a good lot of bullets so you don’t end up investing a lot of money in a large quantity of a bad one?
btw. I understand that everyone has a different standard of accuracy at a given distance, so what might be considered a bad lot in one discipline could be perfectly acceptable in another.

 

[jackieschmidt]

I am not trying to be flippant, but the best way is to shoot them.

If you are shooting true custom bullets, this can be rare. But semi custom mass produced bullets can vary from lot to lot.

You can measure the base to ogive distance and shank diameter on a known good lot, and compare this to a newer lot. But that does not tell you anything about the manufacturing process.

If you are shooting semi custom mass produced bullets, lot to lot variation is possibly something you have to live with.

 

[F Class John]

I hope I’m not opening a can of worms here… What’s your opinion on good and bad bullet lots? No bullet manufacturer is completely immune to producing a bad lot. The real question is: how do you recognize a good lot of bullets so you don’t end up investing a lot of money in a large quantity of a bad one?
btw. I understand that everyone has a different standard of accuracy at a given distance, so what might be considered a bad lot in one discipline could be perfectly acceptable in another.

The best way this was ever explained to me is to think of throwing a football. Just about any quarterback can throw a spiral but some spirals are just better than others and more stable as they fly. Do they all hit their receivers, sure but the quarterback who can throw tighter spirals consistently will always perform better over the long term because they'll hit the receiver in the numbers every time compared to hitting their chest somewhere.

Some bullet lots (no matter the manufacturer) will spiral just a little better than others when in combination with your setup (ignition, powder, case, barrel etc.). Why it happens, I think people have theories but I just chalk it up to dumb luck. I will say that if you're a person who shoots a lot and has experience with how and why things are happening, you'll just feel and see that some bullet lots dial in better, faster and more consistently. They're just an easy button like no other. I know top F Class guys who will immediately feel that happening and those components immediately get pulled for major matches. They won't waste them on club, state or regional matches.

All this to say I think any decent load developer can MAKE any lot of bullets shoot pretty good but great load developers/shooters get that extra Nth out of a lot that fly just a fraction better that others may not see.

 

[rwj]

I am not trying to be flippant, but the best way is to shoot them.

If you are shooting true custom bullets, this can be rare. But semi custom mass produced bullets can vary from lot to lot.

You can measure the base to ogive distance and shank diameter on a known good lot, and compare this to a newer lot. But that does not tell you anything about the manufacturing process.

If you are shooting semi custom mass produced bullets, lot to lot variation is possibly something you have to live with.

Disclaimer - I don’t shoot competitively. But my experience with Berger 105 grain, 6mm bullets is that there is very little lot-to-lot variation.

 

[rardoin]

I've tried auditing my bullets with an E-meter... meh.. didn't help. However, my unit was not authorized by L Ron.

 

[Dave Way]

They say “you get what you pay for” but with bullet lots, it’s “sometimes you get what you pay for.”

Dave.

 

[LCazador]

Measure a few of each brand. This can be as time consuming as you want it to be. Almost all factory bullets will vary in weight, base to ogive, length, and diameter. Pick the brand that has the least amount of variation and go shoot it! Measuring before you shoot conserves barrel life, time, money, gasoline to drive to range, and time away from more important things!

 

[RCE1]

Didn't Vern Juenke have some sort of electronic comparator for bullets? I thought he did.

Some people with lab grade scales will weigh each one and group them accordingly.

 

[AlNyhus]

Nothing that can be measured externally will give you any idea of core seating pressure, core bleed by, how the cores fills out the jacket, etc.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[JFrank]

When I shot Berger’s I would qualify the nose geometry first by sorting base to seater stem contact point into batches followed by base to ogive, only the closest got used for competition after being sorted by overall length that way when I adjusted the seater my ogive relationship changed the equal amount.
Now days I just shoot Vapor trails.
Jim

 

[quest450]

Nothing that can be measured externally will give you any idea of core seating pressure, core bleed by, how the cores fills out the jacket, etc.

Good shootin' -Al

what are your thoughts on the bullet Genie or Juenke Machine ?

 

[AlNyhus]

what are your thoughts on the bullet Genie or Juenke Machine ?

While I've never used a Juenke, a very good bullet maker pal didn't find anything there. -Al

 

[jackieschmidt]

what are your thoughts on the bullet Genie or Juenke Machine ?

I had access to a Vern Juenke machine way back in the mid 2000’s. Myself and several other shooters spent some time sorting bullets like 66 grain Folwlers on it.

We could not tell the difference on the target from those that had more lines of deviation from those that did not.

 

[ELR LVR]

I hope I’m not opening a can of worms here… What’s your opinion on good and bad bullet lots? No bullet manufacturer is completely immune to producing a bad lot. The real question is: how do you recognize a good lot of bullets so you don’t end up investing a lot of money in a large quantity of a bad one?
btw. I understand that everyone has a different standard of accuracy at a given distance, so what might be considered a bad lot in one discipline could be perfectly acceptable in another.

Consistent base to ogive measurments
AND
consistent weights
---
In the realm of physics, I don't know which one is more important
I have heard length is
A constant changing length supposedly being more important to consistency (vertical spread)
than a consistent weight.
---
3rd, something we cannot measure without special equipment and is why Jackie said
you must shoot them
is using a bullet comparator like a Juenke machine
it measures the balance or the consistency of "Center of Form" to "Center of Gravity"
How much deviation will show up on target, I dont know, I never used one, but it's another tool
Likely more important at 600 yds and beyond
---
if there is a microscopic air bubble between the jacket and core
You won't know until you shoot it
a Jeunke Comparator supposedly will tell you how well the bullets are balanced
at 250,000+ RPM, microscopic inperfections are magnified greatly
---
I heard once, something along the lines of
"If you remove 1 ounce from the outer circumference of a wheel, it is like removing 1 pound from the whole mass of the object"
In other words, when it comes to gyroscopic stability, a little bit is like a lot

 

[Dave Way]

Could be coincidence but these 140 Bergers were sorted on a Bullet Genie. Smallest I’ve shot. So far.



Dave.

 

[jimmymac]

Nothing that can be measured externally will give you any idea of core seating pressure, core bleed by, how the cores fills out the jacket, etc.

Good shootin' -Al

Truth! 100%. Spent a couple frustrating hours yesterday trying hard to get some FB bullets to shoot competitively. No go for BR.

 

[JFrank]

Could be coincidence but these 140 Bergers were sorted on a Bullet Genie. Smallest I’ve shot. So far.

View attachment 1748690

Dave.

A record group in the one’s would make my year.
Nice shooting Dave..

 

[David Conder]

I had a reply good shooter tell me that some top shooters are going back to flat base bullets for short range benchrest ???

 

[Bronsin]

I test them in a seating depth ladder covering .020 every .002. If I don't see at least one series of 3 groups in a row that group tight, they become foulers and fireforming bullets.

 

[antunRC]

Sorting by OAL is also an issue with LOT #3885. They don’t sort as consistently as some of the other LOT I’ve used, including some of my 7mm bullets. Here’s an example showing how two different LOT sort (bad/good).

#3885 - This is a bad lot - it doesn’t group like the other LOTs.


#3368 LOT