ES/SD in AR-15s

[memilanuk]

Is anyone out there running an AR-15 variant in .223 Rem / 5.56 Nato, and getting decent ES/SD numbers?

I started tinkering with loading for an AR again, and the velocity numbers are about what I remember from when I shot AR-15s in NRA High Power - both Service Rifle & Match Rifle - i.e. *crap*.

Back then I was using a CED Millenium chrono, and RE15 and Varget for powders with 77s and 80s, and W748 behind a 52 gn pill for reduced/practice ammo. Now, I'm starting out with a Berger 73 LTB and 8208... and I'm pretty confident my reloading skills are probably an order of magnitude more refined since then (~15 years of F-class will do that...).

*Still* getting ES in the 40-50+ range, and SDs of 20-30+. Completely different guns, components, etc. then vs. now, so I'm not looking to dissect the gun or the load... but damn, are these things really *that* hard to get decent numbers out of? I realize that .223 Rem in general is harder to get tight ES/SD out of compared to say, a .308 Win, but this is ridiculous...

 

[Stumpy1]

Primers. In my hands, primers have made the biggest difference in my load's consistency for 223. That and correct powder charge.

Give CCI 450's a try, and Rem 7.5's. Wolf/Tula used to be the ticket, but...

At 600 and in, the high SD doesn't seem to preclude good scores for sling shooting, and even f-Class type shooting.

Hope this helps,

Frank

 

[Tempest]

That's almost the load my son shoots in SR. Using RL15 or Varget. CCI 450, Starlight brass, 80g SMK. Have not tested ES but getting SD of 12 at 600 yard target. So it shoots probably better than him.

How much neck tension? How are you weighing powder charge? Are you crimping?

 

[jepp2]

Is anyone out there running an AR-15 variant in .223 Rem / 5.56 Nato, and getting decent ES/SD numbers?

Lots of data with AR's and various ctgs (223, 204, 20P) and everything has extremely poor ES & SD's. Until I shifted up to larger ctg's like 6 CM and 25-06 did my numbers drop substantially. Same experience with bolt guns in the smaller ctg's.

 

[memilanuk]

Primers. In my hands, primers have made the biggest difference in my load's consistency for 223. That and correct powder charge.

Give CCI 450's a try, and Rem 7.5's. Wolf/Tula used to be the ticket, but...

Will do. Been using primarily R7.5s, but even other ammo has had poopy ES/SD #s.

At 600 and in, the high SD doesn't seem to preclude good scores for sling shooting, and even f-Class type shooting.

Well, I had aspirations of using this particular gun for MR Prone AR Tactical (say that five times fast!) at local club events, rather than dragging out the full-blown FTR rigs. Still, I'm a firm believer in buying myself as much 'forgiveness' at the reloading bench as I can.

How much neck tension? How are you weighing powder charge? Are you crimping?

Generally speaking... about 2-3 thou neck tension. Powder charges in the past... whatever I had on hand at the time. The old Pact powder dispensers, then Chargemaster. Now... currently working with the same AutoThrower + AutoTrickler + FX120i that I use for my FTR ammo.

 

[Jdne5b]

How many round sample is your 40-50ES?

I think the best I can get out of 223 FTR ammo is in the 30-40ES range over 10-20 shots. It's been a while since I've even setup the Labradar.

 

[sfinn1]

Will do. Been using primarily R7.5s, but even other ammo has had poopy ES/SD #s.



Well, I had aspirations of using this particular gun for MR Prone AR Tactical (say that five times fast!) at local club events, rather than dragging out the full-blown FTR rigs. Still, I'm a firm believer in buying myself as much 'forgiveness' at the reloading bench as I can.



Generally speaking... about 2-3 thou neck tension. Powder charges in the past... whatever I had on hand at the time. The old Pact powder dispensers, then Chargemaster. Now... currently working with the same AutoThrower + AutoTrickler + FX120i that I use for my FTR ammo.

I feel your pain. You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. With the .223 forget about the ES & SD stuff. Find your accurate load and go shoot. I've used the .223 for many years in XTC and F Class and found you'll be chasing your tail trying to get the numbers down. We all use to shoot the go to load of 24grs. of Varget or RE 15 over a 77gr. or 80gr. bullet. because of compressed load with these, I've gone to IMR 8208 and very much like it. My load at this time is 22.8grs. 8208/LC brass/ Fed. AR primer/ Hornady 73 ELD and It shoots very well. You might try this with the Berger 73. Be careful with the 8208 when approaching or exceeding 23.0 grs.
Steve

 

[jrh84]

Lowest SD I've personally seen for a .223 (using Silver Mountain E-Targets) is about 12 fps. I've seen our MD @Heman shoot great scores at 1000 using a .223 Palma rifle with right at 10 fps SD, holding x-ring elevation (1 moa x-ring). Thats at the target.

All this was mixed year LC brass, my charges thrown by a Chargemaster, the 1000 yard ammo using a higher end scale.

I've shot cleans at 300 with the target showing 20+ fps SDbwith a service rifle. I've seen cleans with 14X's at 300 with SD's in the 30 fps range from an AR tac setup.

I think roughly 10 fps is about all thats feasibly attainable with a .223, and 20 fps all thats required to shoot cleans out to 600.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Seems like the gas block and it's barrel fit would be important to velocity deviation.

 

[LVLAaron]

I get 8-10 in my AR but I’m single feeding from a locked open bolt. If you’re auto feeding and letting rounds cook in the chamber for various amounts of time between shots you’re going to get worse numbers.

 

[searcher]

Because the .223-based cartridges can be finicky in obtaining good numbers - it is well worth noting that this will often be attributed to very minute variations in how your brass was prepped (ie: did you skim-turn necks, ream flash holes, uniform primer pockets), differences in bullet weights and powder charges, etc. Anything not super uniform shows more on a .223 than a lot of (mostly larger) cartridges. I get really nice numbers using just about any brand of brass - but usually not until I have at least skim-turned the necks to 75% clean metal - and be sure to use a bushing sizing die so that you don't size the neck down too much (yes - even on an A/R). You want a lot more tension than a bolt gun - but you don't want too much - and never a crimp for accuracy. I go with a bushing about .005" smaller than the neck diameter of a loaded round (as measured as close to the case mouth as possible). Uniform bullet release seems to be underrated in a .223, but is one of the biggest contributors to good numbers and accuracy. I have best success with Tula, Wolf, Remington 7 1/2 or Federal A/R Match primers. Trickle your powder up to your exact charge if you don't already. If you use the Russian primers - I'd not level the primer pockets. Most reamers take off a bit too much for the likes of these primers, resulting in very inconsistent ignition - throwing your numbers all over the place. Also - if you push your shoulders back more than .003" - you will likely get increasingly inconsistent numbers. So - if you do all these things and still bad - I'd change powder or bullet. Some cartridges - like the 6PPC almost uniformly like a few bullets and powders to the point where most people use just one or the other. The .223 is not that animal!

 

[SG4247]

This must be a cartridge specific issue, that ive not noticed before.

This is a 24” 6mm AR WITH NO LOAD DEVELOPMENT. New Lapua Grendel brass fully prepped - first firing.

I have 4 of them, so the loading is similar.

 

[Andy Legg]

6.9 FPS S/D at 600 yards on ShotMarker. 77grain SMK loaded at 2.260" COAL, Lake City Brass(sorted by year), FGMM 205M Primers over 23.4 Grains of 8208XBR. NRA Mid-Range Prone Tactical Rifle(AR).

 

[Bamban]

Is anyone out there running an AR-15 variant in .223 Rem / 5.56 Nato, and getting decent ES/SD numbers?

I started tinkering with loading for an AR again, and the velocity numbers are about what I remember from when I shot AR-15s in NRA High Power - both Service Rifle & Match Rifle - i.e. *crap*.

Back then I was using a CED Millenium chrono, and RE15 and Varget for powders with 77s and 80s, and W748 behind a 52 gn pill for reduced/practice ammo. Now, I'm starting out with a Berger 73 LTB and 8208... and I'm pretty confident my reloading skills are probably an order of magnitude more refined since then (~15 years of F-class will do that...).

*Still* getting ES in the 40-50+ range, and SDs of 20-30+. Completely different guns, components, etc. then vs. now, so I'm not looking to dissect the gun or the load... but damn, are these things really *that* hard to get decent numbers out of? I realize that .223 Rem in general is harder to get tight ES/SD out of compared to say, a .308 Win, but this is ridiculous...

Could not find the bench data when I was doing the testing. Loaned my rifle and ammo to a friend to shoot in a mid range match, 600 yards, shot prone with leather sling.

Rifle: 20 inch service rifle, 4.5X March scope, 7.5T Shilen Ratchet SM chambered with a JGS special 0.253 neck and 0.062 freebore, 1-15 angle, 5.56 body.

Ammo: Berger 80 VLD in 0.015, 24.5 of European manufactured powder dispensed from V2 autotrickler and Fx120i, once fired LC05 sorted to 96.5 -97 grains. Primers were 205MARs.

Brass was commercially bulk processed through Camdex system and primed through a Mark 7 driven Dillon 1050 by the shooter. All I did was load them.

Here are screenshots of the targets. It was a 2 day match, don't have the other 2 screenshots, but you can see the average SD across 80 shots based on these. He had 1590-62 or 63. Could not recall.

 

[Fuj]

I stopped loading match ammo years ago for the speed steel
match's. I bought a case of IMI MOD-1 77gr SMK's and shot
them out of my RRA 8 twist bull barreled varmint. I am getting
ES's in the 20's......Note this ammo is brown box mil with all
head stamp numbers matching. IMI-15-09 The same ammo can
be had in the fancy green box, but last 2 digits are mixed.

 

[mac86951]

Is anyone out there running an AR-15 variant in .223 Rem / 5.56 Nato, and getting decent ES/SD numbers?

I started tinkering with loading for an AR again, and the velocity numbers are about what I remember from when I shot AR-15s in NRA High Power - both Service Rifle & Match Rifle - i.e. *crap*.

Back then I was using a CED Millenium chrono, and RE15 and Varget for powders with 77s and 80s, and W748 behind a 52 gn pill for reduced/practice ammo. Now, I'm starting out with a Berger 73 LTB and 8208... and I'm pretty confident my reloading skills are probably an order of magnitude more refined since then (~15 years of F-class will do that...).

*Still* getting ES in the 40-50+ range, and SDs of 20-30+. Completely different guns, components, etc. then vs. now, so I'm not looking to dissect the gun or the load... but damn, are these things really *that* hard to get decent numbers out of? I realize that .223 Rem in general is harder to get tight ES/SD out of compared to say, a .308 Win, but this is ridiculous...

I've been tinkering with a few over the years; SD in the 20-30 is common. If you want better, here's what I've found:

1. Not sure of what mechanical adjustments can be made on your rifle, but a good clamp on gas block and smoothed feed ramps / ejector. Brass should eject into a nice 1'x1' pile. This is more a measure of system is functioning and load is about right. Get a clamp on adjustable gas block. (JP works well)

2. Brass prep. I weigh sorted to +/- 0.5gr until had about a 300 case lot. Do this AFTER sizing, trimming, flash-hole deburring, and reaming primer pockets (I use the sinclair carbide tool).

3. Primer / Powder combo. I was going crazy with Varget and CCi450s; did you know that 0.1gr of varget is three kernels? Yes, I know all too well with 223, but once I switched to Fed 205M I had less 'counting' to do. Get a good scale! Small volume case, small changes = big shifts. My recommendation is don't count kernels, make a system change for bigger effects (IE change primer or powder). 600y fed from magazine, sub MOA usually means Varget, N140, H4895. I rarely see anything else on the line year round performing like those.

4. Concentricity; get a guage and use it, or stuff the 77s into the case and roll em on the table. I went thru ~3 seating stems trying to lap one to fit. Forster hooked me up with a good seating die. It's mine, find your own.

5. Check your loading process to clean / resize your brass and treat each firing as new brass, I found the brass to be happy after about 4 loadings, just before trimming / annealing.

Finally, after all if that, don't push velocity. I used to do all of that for years; then a month ago I loaded 200 on my progressive with mixed range brass, 77 SMKs, and 23.5gr CFE-223 (205M) and it held really good waterline to 500y, match quality? Well, let's just say good enough to read the wind, which regardless of SD below 30; run your ballistics calc on a 1mph wind call error, and you'll see what I mean. Oh, all that and my SDs/ES were slightly better, 10/20. Once I measured an SD of 6. That chrono got new batteries shortly after.

I can see why 600y+ most load the 80+gr bullets.

-Mac

 

[7x57]

Could not find the bench data when I was doing the testing. Loaned my rifle and ammo to a friend to shoot in a mid range match, 600 yards, shot prone with leather sling.

Rifle: 20 inch service rifle, 4.5X March scope, 7.5T Shilen Ratchet SM chambered with a JGS special 0.253 neck and 0.062 freebore, 1-15 angle, 5.56 body.

Ammo: Berger 80 VLD in 0.015, 24.5 of European manufactured powder dispensed from V2 autotrickler and Fx120i, once fired LC05 sorted to 96.5 -97 grains. Primers were 205MARs.

Brass was commercially bulk processed through Camdex system and primed through a Mark 7 driven Dillon 1050 by the shooter. All I did was load them.

Here are screenshots of the targets. It was a 2 day match, don't have the other 2 screenshots, but you can see the average SD across 80 shots based on these. He had 1590-62 or 63. Could not recall.
View attachment 1205956 View attachment 1205957 View attachment 1205958 View attachment 1205959

thats some hard holding

 

[ptf18]

It is a GREAT relief to hear that others are "struggling" to lower the SD/ED of their .223 loads (in the AR at least). I've been pulling my hair our while trying to get single digit numbers in loads that the target shows to be very accurate for the XTC shooting I do.