Do we need digital readouts on scope windage and elevation adjustments?

[chkunz]

I shot XTC with the service rifle with iron sights for about 100 years. Bookkeeping the zeros and adjustment of the iron sights for the various stages and distances was very straightforward and intuitive. Now most people like me are using scopes for XTC and it is much more difficult to keep up with the settings. The scopes and the sights were not designed for what we are using them for. Trying to read the markings to see if I have properly moved the settings to go from one yard line to another is very difficult and the numbering format is not the same from one brand of scope to another. It is all very confusing and easy to get lost. Am I the only one who is having trouble with this? It seems like what we need is a digital readout on the turret.

 

[nksmfamjp]

Not sure I need digital, but would love an absolute measurement of my adjustment!

 

[whatsupdoc]

I want a digital readout of the current turret position in the scopes retical and even better if you could have the turret setting and a programed yardage in the retical.

Happens to me quite a bit where I cannot see the turret markings due to ambient light conditions.

 

[chkunz]

Not sure I need digital, but would love an absolute measurement of my adjustment!

I have been trying to do that with dial calipers. It is crude but will tell me if I am one revolution off.

 

[chkunz]

Not sure I need digital, but would love an absolute measurement of my adjustment!

I have been doing that with dial calipers, crude but will tell me if I am one revolution off.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Let me explain how I do it when I shoot a Palma course in F-class.

The distances in SR are 200/300/600, from what I remember. In F-Class, it would be 300/500/600 or 800/900/1000.
For a 300/500//600, I would set my 0-stop right below the 300 yard distance and set the 0 on the dial to correspond to the actual 300 zero. Then I would have a little chart that would give me the come-ups from 300 to 500, and then 500 to 600. I would also have the come-ups from 300 to 600. (No need to do arithmetic in the middle of the match.) These come-ups would be validated of course. Start with JBM values and refine with actual shooting.

So at the first match at 300, my scope would be at the 0 stop and the 0. The come up from 300 to 500 would be something like 4 1/4 MOA. So, going to the 500 yard line, I would click up 4 1/4 MOA. Then going to 600, that would be another 2MOA or 6 1/4 MOA from 300 (0 stop).

200/300/600 should all be within the same rotation, starting at 0.

If I got confused, I would just wind down to 0 stop and 0 and dial in my position. I made it a standard to dial the come-ups for the next stage after finishing the current one. At the end of the day, I would dial back down to the 0 stop and 0.

 

[Krogen]

Some scopes have settable zero stops. That's one solution. Without that, I find the "soft bottom" in elevation by turning the knob as low as I can without undue force. Then I come up a couple MOA. I then loosen and reset my elevation knob to zero, and retighten the set screw. That's my "soft" zero stop. My distance settings are all based on that zero. If I get confused (yeah it happens!) when counting revolutions, I simply go all the way down to the soft bottom and come up a few click to that first zero. Now I know where I'm starting from and can adjust from there. Windage is easier yet. I loosen, adjust and retighten the elevation knob to show zero for my baseline no wind setting. Then I go + or - whatever clicks I need to compensate for wind. It's always simple to return to the windage zero setting.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I shot XTC with the service rifle with iron sights for about 100 years. Bookkeeping the zeros and adjustment of the iron sights for the various stages and distances was very straightforward and intuitive. Now most people like me are using scopes for XTC and it is much more difficult to keep up with the settings. The scopes and the sights were not designed for what we are using them for. Trying to read the markings to see if I have properly moved the settings to go from one yard line to another is very difficult and the numbering format is not the same from one brand of scope to another. It is all very confusing and easy to get lost. Am I the only one who is having trouble with this? It seems like what we need is a digital readout on the turret.

Obviuously, some scopes are better (i.e. more "modern") than others. Having lines become visible or get covered up as the turrets are adjusted outwards/inwards is one mechanism to aid in repeatable and correct scope adjustments. My biggest issue is simply that as I've gotten older and my near vision has gone to pot, seeing anything up close is virtually impossible without reading glasses. My contact lens prescription for near sightedness exacerbates this issue greatly. I'm lukewarm about the notion of digital turret readouts. I'd settle for having the vision I had when I was 16 years old. LOL

 

[DR_2297]

Well I always just zeroed @ 200 and set my elevation and windage knobs on zero. Then as I got a 300 or 500 or 600 yard zero I wrote that down in my plot book. Over time those zeroes solidify but do shift range to range. I always left enough elevation to be able to adjust down for a 100 yard zero.

Some scopes are easier. The NF SR optic for example is very simple as well as the WOA optic and on most optics you never need more than a partial rev on any knob. You should either be writing down your changes or storing them in your head while you shoot anyway.

Not rocket science.

For my Palma rifle I still tend to count down or over to hard stop and write that down but will set the scale to align on zero for fast reference after that.

Being far sighted like many middle aged people I do keep my bifocals close and some ppl have a small magnifying glass. I tend to put my elevation on for the next yard line when I am done at the previous yard line so I don’t get pre-occupied getting my stuff to the line and forget. Especially at places like Camp Perry where matches are run like the tower talker is trying to win a race to get done.

 

[Rampsey]

I'm inexperienced to some and quite capable to others in long range shooting.
What bothers or confuses me?
Why the hell do guys insist on 100 different elevation and windage Christmas tree reticle marks if your going to dial up and down the whole time?
Lol
I find it absolutely fascinating thst all the custom reticle everyone insist on and then they don't use Holdover except for the fine adjustment in clicks between the reticle?

And digital?

Absolutely positively not
Just like modern automobiles.
The more electronics?
The less dependable the product in outside adverse conditions

 

[nksmfamjp]

I'm inexperienced to some and quite capable to others in long range shooting.
What bothers or confuses me?
Why the hell do guys insist on 100 different elevation and windage Christmas tree reticle marks if your going to dial up and down the whole time?
Lol

Do you dial or hold wind?

Also, do you see the value in holding elevation and wind on shorter shots for speed? I do.

Like you, i wonder why i need a 10 mil tall Xmas tree when I’ll never hold elevation more than 3 mil. I think it is for spotting where the miss hits in the grid to correct quickly.

 

[1shot]

Let me explain how I do it when I shoot a Palma course in F-class.

The distances in SR are 200/300/600, from what I remember. In F-Class, it would be 300/500/600 or 800/900/1000.
For a 300/500//600, I would set my 0-stop right below the 300 yard distance and set the 0 on the dial to correspond to the actual 300 zero. Then I would have a little chart that would give me the come-ups from 300 to 500, and then 500 to 600. I would also have the come-ups from 300 to 600. (No need to do arithmetic in the middle of the match.) These come-ups would be validated of course. Start with JBM values and refine with actual shooting.

So at the first match at 300, my scope would be at the 0 stop and the 0. The come up from 300 to 500 would be something like 4 1/4 MOA. So, going to the 500 yard line, I would click up 4 1/4 MOA. Then going to 600, that would be another 2MOA or 6 1/4 MOA from 300 (0 stop).

200/300/600 should all be within the same rotation, starting at 0.

If I got confused, I would just wind down to 0 stop and 0 and dial in my position. I made it a standard to dial the come-ups for the next stage after finishing the current one. At the end of the day, I would dial back down to the 0 stop and 0.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is exactly how I was taught to "do the math" under match conditions. You can replicate this exercise at 100 yds. or any other distance by using a tall target then measuring the distance between the groups with a tape measure, and comparing that number to JBM.
I hope this helps,

Lloyd

 

[Pres100]

Let me explain how I do it when I shoot a Palma course in F-class.

The distances in SR are 200/300/600, from what I remember. In F-Class, it would be 300/500/600 or 800/900/1000.
For a 300/500//600, I would set my 0-stop right below the 300 yard distance and set the 0 on the dial to correspond to the actual 300 zero. Then I would have a little chart that would give me the come-ups from 300 to 500, and then 500 to 600. I would also have the come-ups from 300 to 600. (No need to do arithmetic in the middle of the match.) These come-ups would be validated of course. Start with JBM values and refine with actual shooting.

So at the first match at 300, my scope would be at the 0 stop and the 0. The come up from 300 to 500 would be something like 4 1/4 MOA. So, going to the 500 yard line, I would click up 4 1/4 MOA. Then going to 600, that would be another 2MOA or 6 1/4 MOA from 300 (0 stop).

200/300/600 should all be within the same rotation, starting at 0.

If I got confused, I would just wind down to 0 stop and 0 and dial in my position. I made it a standard to dial the come-ups for the next stage after finishing the current one. At the end of the day, I would dial back down to the 0 stop and 0.

This was pretty much the standard procedure for irons as well (less the zero stop) ... just transferred over to scopes. When the rules changed to allow optics, I did something similar. I set my elevation zero stop to 1/2 min under my no wind 200 yd zero. Windage was set at the no wind zero.

going to 300/600 Dial up and count the clicks just like I did with the irons. At the time of the change my eyes were already going bad so I pretty much had to rely on clicks and the zero stop to validate the zero.

for those that require reading glasses and can't see up close, they make peel and stick bifocal lenses you can add to the bottom of your shooting glasses (your typically shooting through the tops of your glasses anyway in position!)

 

[chkunz]

Not sure I need digital, but would love an absolute measurement of my adjustment!

Thank you for your response. I thought of digital but there may be a better way. The service rifle sights were "absolute" as you say and that was difficult enough but we learned to deal with it. With the scope I am much less confident that I am connected with reality and trying to determine where I am by looking at the confusing markings on the turrets does not give me confidence. Also, most scopes were designed for hunting and there were not a lot of moving the adjustment in the life of the scope. Today an XTC shooter moves more clicks in a match in a day than the hunter does in years. Are they designed for that much exercise?

 

[chkunz]

I want a digital readout of the current turret position in the scopes retical and even better if you could have the turret setting and a programed yardage in the retical.

Happens to me quite a bit where I cannot see the turret markings due to ambient light conditions.

Thanks for the reply. I do not need the complication of "programed yardage" in the reticle for XTC. I just need an easy way to have confidence as to where the sight settings are and easily determine where I am when I move them.

 

[chkunz]

Let me explain how I do it when I shoot a Palma course in F-class.

The distances in SR are 200/300/600, from what I remember. In F-Class, it would be 300/500/600 or 800/900/1000.
For a 300/500//600, I would set my 0-stop right below the 300 yard distance and set the 0 on the dial to correspond to the actual 300 zero. Then I would have a little chart that would give me the come-ups from 300 to 500, and then 500 to 600. I would also have the come-ups from 300 to 600. (No need to do arithmetic in the middle of the match.) These come-ups would be validated of course. Start with JBM values and refine with actual shooting.

So at the first match at 300, my scope would be at the 0 stop and the 0. The come up from 300 to 500 would be something like 4 1/4 MOA. So, going to the 500 yard line, I would click up 4 1/4 MOA. Then going to 600, that would be another 2MOA or 6 1/4 MOA from 300 (0 stop).

200/300/600 should all be within the same rotation, starting at 0.

If I got confused, I would just wind down to 0 stop and 0 and dial in my position. I made it a standard to dial the come-ups for the next stage after finishing the current one. At the end of the day, I would dial back down to the 0 stop and 0.

Thanks for your reply. I think you make my point. This was difficult enough with iron sights but now much more difficult with turrets with markings that are complicated and unreadable without strong eye correction glasses and no hard mechanical stop.

 

[chkunz]

Some scopes have settable zero stops. That's one solution. Without that, I find the "soft bottom" in elevation by turning the knob as low as I can without undue force. Then I come up a couple MOA. I then loosen and reset my elevation knob to zero, and retighten the set screw. That's my "soft" zero stop. My distance settings are all based on that zero. If I get confused (yeah it happens!) when counting revolutions, I simply go all the way down to the soft bottom and come up a few click to that first zero. Now I know where I'm starting from and can adjust from there. Windage is easier yet. I loosen, adjust and retighten the elevation knob to show zero for my baseline no wind setting. Then I go + or - whatever clicks I need to compensate for wind. It's always simple to return to the windage zero setting.

Thanks for the reply. I am glad I am not chasing leg points using this procedure in matches with no sighters where the first shot of each stage needs to be in the ten ring. Your method is probably workable for F Class with unlimited sighters as long as the first shot is on paper. Thanks again for your reply. Best wishes.

 

[chkunz]

Obviuously, some scopes are better (i.e. more "modern") than others. Having lines become visible or get covered up as the turrets are adjusted outwards/inwards is one mechanism to aid in repeatable and correct scope adjustments. My biggest issue is simply that as I've gotten older and my near vision has gone to pot, seeing anything up close is virtually impossible without reading glasses. My contact lens prescription for near sightedness exacerbates this issue greatly. I'm lukewarm about the notion of digital turret readouts. I'd settle for having the vision I had when I was 16 years old. LOL

Thanks for the reply. Since we are not going to be able to have 16 year old vision again, we need something that will work for us old, blind shooters and that is why I thought of a digital readout. There may be the possibility of something better but what we now have on the market is not it.

 

[chkunz]

Well I always just zeroed @ 200 and set my elevation and windage knobs on zero. Then as I got a 300 or 500 or 600 yard zero I wrote that down in my plot book. Over time those zeroes solidify but do shift range to range. I always left enough elevation to be able to adjust down for a 100 yard zero.

Some scopes are easier. The NF SR optic for example is very simple as well as the WOA optic and on most optics you never need more than a partial rev on any knob. You should either be writing down your changes or storing them in your head while you shoot anyway.

Not rocket science.

For my Palma rifle I still tend to count down or over to hard stop and write that down but will set the scale to align on zero for fast reference after that.

Being far sighted like many middle aged people I do keep my bifocals close and some ppl have a small magnifying glass. I tend to put my elevation on for the next yard line when I am done at the previous yard line so I don’t get pre-occupied getting my stuff to the line and forget. Especially at places like Camp Perry where matches are run like the tower talker is trying to win a race to get done.

Thanks for the reply. I get your point, but you are still having to make the best of a bad situation with no "hard Stop" and markings that you cannot see without a lot of help that does not work well in the heat of the match like at Perry. I want something better.

 

[dannyjbiggs]

Yep...like others, I first zeroed all my riflescopes for elevation/windage at 200 yards, and carefully marked that on my NightForces. Although I maintained a generic ballistic come-up chart (to include wind drift windage settings for 600-1000 yards) for the mid-range distances and the palma match course distances, I kept the actual come-ups on file for the various ranges I visited about the US and overseas...just like I used to maintain my service rifle log book for particular ranges. Gotta do the paperwork for riflescopes, too. So would not ever have a need for digital readouts on my NighForces .