Do I really need higher mag to shoot tight groups? Help with a scope purchase.

[hkfan45]

I have a NXS 12-42 on a 308. I bought the scope figuring I would need the mag for f-class/benchrest shooting at 600+ yards, and would only use 10-15x at 100 yards. However, I find myself keeping the scope at 42x at all times, even at 100 yards (mirage not an issue here). I use 1" colored dots at 42x at 100 yards and this seems to produce the best groups. My question is twofold:

1. Is this the "proper" use of my scope? Can I effectively get the same performance out of the rifle by using lower magnification and larger target circles to compensate?

2. Using such a higher magnification scope obviously has its limitations for practical uses, such as extremely narrow FOV. I need another scope for a 6xc build (for 100-1000 yard shooting). I'm leaning towards another high mag scope like the S&B 12-50 or another NF, but can I achieve top performance out of the rifle with a lower mag, such as a 5-25x?

 

[dkhunt14]

Some people seem to need a lot of power. My light guns are close on weight so I can only use a Leupold 8.5x25. I don't seem to have trouble shooting small with it. It has the TMR reticule which looks like a small diamond with open in the middle. At 25 power it is about right for a 3 inch patch at 1000. I like to use targets with a vertical and horizontal line drawn on it to use for testing. It is good for 100 to 400 yard. Matt

 

[SS427]

I'm up to a 55x scope now at 100 yards and I have no intention of going backwards. My eyes can't seem to get enough magnification. More is better in my opinion for shooting small groups.

 

[Lapua40X]

... 1. Is this the "proper" use of my scope? Can I effectively get the same performance out of the rifle by using lower magnification and larger target circles to compensate?

The "proper" use of your scope is the use that provides you with the end image result you prefer. I might want to drop my power down to 15 at 100 and pump it up to 25 for 1K. I'd do that because I want the field of view at 15 that 25 won't give me. But if I'm focusing on a 1 inch dot at 100 yards and I don't care what's around it outside of the narrow area revealed in the glass, the 25 power would suit me just fine.

 

[fredhorace77]

Like others have mentioned its up to what you like. For my hunting rifles i really like 10x shooting at a 3" diamond at 100 yards. My mind and eyes seem to be able to center easier on a diamond. I have a hard time centering on a target that is circular. Just a personal preference i have . I have used higher power like 16x or 24x but then i have to go to a smaller diamond target. I guess what im trying to say is, dont be afraid to try different power settings and different style of targets. If your shooting competition then ur limited to the target usd for that discipline regardless of what you favor. then you only have the option of changing your power setting to ur liking.

 

[Mega]

Not knowing what the firearm you are going to use actually is and if you are talking about precision target shooting but in my view if your are going "to shoot tight groups" then you need the best possible advantage you can get.

I don't care if it's at 100 yards or 1,000 yards but you need a tight aiming point and you need to be able to see it. Short range, 100 yards with a Benchrest Rifle say 6mm PPC and you are shooting for "Group" then you need to focus on the fine point of your aiming target. A friend of mine just shot this disipline and his best 5 shot group was 0.088" and the aggregate over 5 targets was 0.1556". You don't do that with a low power scope, think he was using a March 10-60x52mm and I bet it was wound up pretty high to tell the minute variations of his sighter shots.

I use an 8-80x56mm March and I can tell you that doing load development at 200 yards it isn't sitting much below maximum power. My aiming point is fine cross lines and my reticle is an MTR-2 with a fine clear dot that I place on the intersection of those fine lines and have the scope set to not shoot my aiming point. That task is very difficult with a low power scope say 25X or less.

My hunting/varmint rifle sports a March 5-50x56mm and is very nice to use either long range varminting or target shooting out to near 600 yards which is as far as I generally shoot. You can always wind the power back to 5X but you can't wind it up if you don't have it.

Hunting reasonable sized animals doing body shots is a total different ball park.

 

[hkfan45]

Not knowing what the firearm you are going to use actually is and if you are talking about precision target shooting but in my view if your are going "to shoot tight groups" then you need the best possible advantage you can get.

I don't care if it's at 100 yards or 1,000 yards but you need a tight aiming point and you need to be able to see it. Short range, 100 yards with a Benchrest Rifle say 6mm PPC and you are shooting for "Group" then you need to focus on the fine point of your aiming target. A friend of mine just shot this disipline and his best 5 shot group was 0.088" and the aggregate over 5 targets was 0.1556". You don't do that with a low power scope, think he was using a March 10-60x52mm and I bet it was wound up pretty high to tell the minute variations of his sighter shots.

I use an 8-80x56mm March and I can tell you that doing load development at 200 yards it isn't sitting much below maximum power. My aiming point is fine cross lines and my reticle is an MTR-2 with a fine clear dot that I place on the intersection of those fine lines and have the scope set to not shoot my aiming point. That task is very difficult with a low power scope say 25X or less.

My hunting/varmint rifle sports a March 5-50x56mm and is very nice to use either long range varminting or target shooting out to near 600 yards which is as far as I generally shoot. You can always wind the power back to 5X but you can't wind it up if you don't have it.

Hunting reasonable sized animals doing body shots is a total different ball park.

Thank you to you and others for the very helpful advice. I am now leaning towards a higher powered scope for this rig.

Did you consider the s&b 12-50 when you purchased the March 5-50? From the little I can gleam from forums, the 12-50 seems,to have mixed reviews.

 

[Mega]

I'm not sure on the pricing difference of the S&B but my friend I mentioned is the Australian Agent for March Scopes so I deal with him and listen to his advice. Top quality European vrs top quality Japaneese and I have only had a few comments from those that have low power S&B that say by gee how good is the March optics after looking through my ones. I have never owned a S&B nor consider the thought after using the 3 March Scopes I now have.

Funny story.....

I was playing with my .22LR at 50 metres one day and a Zeiss 3-9x40mm Scope and was a little annoyed at not seeing the fine dots on the target that was the centre so having a Picatinny Rail to suit I put that on and mounted my Nightforce 12-42x56mm I owned at the time. I had more fun aiming at the tiny Ants crawling up the target than anything else...when I settled down and back to business it was a very good move....42x power at 50 metres. Very top heavy for a sporting rifle but a lot of fun testing accuracy of various brands of Rimfire Ammunition. One day I might own a Benchrest Rimfire to shoot out to 200 metres and it will have a high power scope mounted.

I have at one time quickly looked at a few S&B's Reticles and I didn't find one that suited my liking so that was a minus point for me. I like the March MTR-2 Reticle but for dedicated target I would like to own a 1/16 or 3/32 Dot Reticle 8-80x56mm for precision target shooting, my 500 Metre dicipline has a 10X ring of only 1.75" and the aiming point is a fraction of that size.

http://marchscopes.com/tactical-8-80-x-56.html

 

[blairf]

[size=10pt]I have used -and still use- several S&B's on my rifles. The model I use is the 5x25 and IMO, it is an excellent scope both in tracking, repeatability, and clarity. Some say that it is still the standard for comparison for all other scopes.

When I started F-T/R this scope did not have enough power for my liking, so I considered the S&B 12x50. The weight was the only thing holding me back from selecting the scope.
I ended up going with the March 8x80 and have been very happy.
[/size]


[/quote]

Thank you to you and others for the very helpful advice. I am now leaning towards a higher powered scope for this rig.

Did you consider the s&b 12-50 when you purchased the March 5-50? From the little I can gleam from forums, the 12-50 seems,to have mixed reviews.
[/quote]

 

[dkhunt14]

Isn't hunter BR limited to 6X? They shoot little groups. I have 2 Heavy Gun 1000 BR rigs. They are identical except for scopes. The one has a 8.5x25 Leupold LRT and the other a 8x32 Nightforce BR. Over the years of shooting with both I have never shot any bigger aggregates with the one over the other. In fact a lot of days I have to turn the BR down some to deal with mirage. It is nice to have the high power when you need it but seems a lot of days I can't use it all the way up. Matt

 

[LHSmith]

Yes, Hunter Score BR mandates 6x maximum......however all shooters employ a high magnification spotting scope situated where they can quickly transition from one eyepiece to the other. They need to verify where the shots go (older eyes) and also monitor mirage.
FWIW, even in test tunnels, mirage will be present without proper engineering practices employed to minimize it.
Anytime you have thermal gradients between muzzle and target ......mirage WILL be present resulting in the target NOT being where it appears.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

In my case when I stepped up from a 25x Leup to a 42x NF my groups did not shrink. It seemed easier to shoot though. Took me less time to center up. Now I have a 55x NF and have found the superior glass allows me to see mirage better. Now I adjust the power to where I can see the mirage running the easiest. For me thats about 40x on my 55x NF. Going back to my 42x is like shooting blind, the 55x lets me see the mirage much easier.

 

[M14AMU]

The highest power scope in the world ain't gonna help you at high noon in the south in July/August!

 

[BoydAllen]

The extent to which higher magnification benefits you will depend on several factors, not the least of which is the rifle on which the scope is mounted. If you have a half inch rifle, your optics are of high quality, and reticule and target are optimized and coordinated, at 100 yards, lower magnification may not result in larger groups. On the other hand, if your rifle, tune, and your own capabilities fall in the region where groups that measure less than .200 are possible, then, the extra magnification can make a difference. This is a situation with multiple factors come to bear, and the end result is the result of the effect of the weakest link. Tell me that you are shooting with the help of several wind flags between you and the target.

 

[hkfan45]

Every time I try and drop down to a lower mag (i.e. 18-20x), I have trouble with making sure I'm on the precise aiming point to ensure I am aiming at the same thing each time. How does one do this at lower mags? Just use a bigger circle? Is there any tricks that I am not utilizing?

 

[BoydAllen]

I have always made my own targets to fit lower power scopes.

Back in my early days of shooting and reloading, all I had was a 4x Tasco scope on my .308, that I loaded for with a Lee loader using a plastic mallet. I would take some white paper from a small tablet, and cut it into squares that I then Scotch taped to the centers of the individual targets on a 50 yard smallbore target. I rotated them so that they had a corner at top center, creating a white diamond on the black target center. With a little experimentation I was able to determine what size gave the best fit with the cross hairs of my scope, when shooting at 1000 yards. These days, I have made some very useful targets using Microsoft Word, with different style aiming points. The latest that I have created have large aiming circles with a wide black line around them, spaced out so that errant shots do not confuse adjoining groups. In the past I have made squares with heavy borders with narrow gaps between them such that I could see a little white on either side of the cross hairs. I use a torpedo level when posting the target, after the frame is positioned, and aim at the intersection of horizontal and vertical gaps. This gives very strong centering, as well as an excellent reference for holding the rifle level for each shot. If you make up a number of targets and post them all on the same frame, you can check them to see which give the best fit.

 

[hogan]

What do you need to shoot tighter groups?

12-42x ain't enough??? What at 1000yds???


I had a beater rem 700SA Howard Dietz installed a well-used rem PSS .308 barrel I bought. With a 6x Leupold Mk4 w/target dot reticle in a non-bedded H-S police stock, that gun would group under .35" at 100 and under .65" at 200 off sandbags, not even a Hart forend rest... 5shot groups measured w/dial caliper.

I was using benchrest target square sighter block above ea bull. Sighted the dot on lower corner of the sighter and fired for group there. Consistent aiming point... 6x scope... Good optics, minimal magnification.

Try aligning your reticle with the 90deg angle and take your time on the trigger release. Maybe shoot at 12x so you don't get all the bounce and vibration you see at 42x or in between...

Might be your scope mount has issues. I was using Badger base & rings. Had been using Leupold mk4 rings but they didn't hold zero; the Badger rings did.

Might even have a cocked scope base... If you are "on" at one distance, off at others. One I had on a 700 rem .300win mag was out by .05" on one side. This was a $160+ "precision" scope base. One slow Sat night I decided to measure the 4 LA Pic bases I owned. Nightforce, Near, Badger, and Warne. The Near was incredibly perfect. NF and Warne very good. Never Know until you examine All the variables... Stuff happens.

Got another scope you know tracks correct? Maybe try that one and see.
Maybe your ammunition is not handloaded to match tolerances? Maybe your torque values are at variance?

Looking to thread a button fastening hole at 1000yds? Probably need that 60x March... There are such things as unreal expectations in this world...

 

[hogan]

Not knowing what the firearm you are going to use actually is and if you are talking about precision target shooting but in my view if your are going "to shoot tight groups" then you need the best possible advantage you can get.

I don't care if it's at 100 yards or 1,000 yards but you need a tight aiming point and you need to be able to see it. Short range, 100 yards with a Benchrest Rifle say 6mm PPC and you are shooting for "Group" then you need to focus on the fine point of your aiming target. A friend of mine just shot this disipline and his best 5 shot group was 0.088" and the aggregate over 5 targets was 0.1556". You don't do that with a low power scope, think he was using a March 10-60x52mm and I bet it was wound up pretty high to tell the minute variations of his sighter shots.

I use an 8-80x56mm March and I can tell you that doing load development at 200 yards it isn't sitting much below maximum power. My aiming point is fine cross lines and my reticle is an MTR-2 with a fine clear dot that I place on the intersection of those fine lines and have the scope set to not shoot my aiming point. That task is very difficult with a low power scope say 25X or less.

My hunting/varmint rifle sports a March 5-50x56mm and is very nice to use either long range varminting or target shooting out to near 600 yards which is as far as I generally shoot. You can always wind the power back to 5X but you can't wind it up if you don't have it.

Hunting reasonable sized animals doing body shots is a total different ball park.

Mega,

Not really... Palma guys shoot irons at 1000, and Service Rifle guys shoot irons at 600. 1/2moa or less to be in the hunt, maybe 1/3 moa to win.

It ain't the magnification it is the aiming point and trigger release, plus ammo and wind reading at distance. No such thing as a wide field high mag scope. Tradeoffs in everything. At 1000yds does an 80x even show both target holding supports? Hard to see conditions, other than mirage. But I am no Longrange shooter of experience...

Lots of longrange shooting done back when a 10x Unertl in return to battery mounts was king of the hill.

 

[M-61]

As the power goes up does the eye relief become 'smaller'? Meaning 3" eye relief on a 45x and you are 2.8" or 3.2 inches and anything more or less and the sight pic is gone. I ask because a 45x Leupold I have seems to be super critical in regard to eye relief. You are either RIGHT ON or you get nothing. I hope I explained this correctly.

 

[Mega]

Mega,

Not really... Palma guys shoot irons at 1000, and Service Rifle guys shoot irons at 600. 1/2moa or less to be in the hunt, maybe 1/3 moa to win.

It ain't the magnification it is the aiming point and trigger release, plus ammo and wind reading at distance. No such thing as a wide field high mag scope. Tradeoffs in everything. At 1000yds does an 80x even show both target holding supports? Hard to see conditions, other than mirage. But I am no Longrange shooter of experience...

Lots of longrange shooting done back when a 10x Unertl in return to battery mounts was king of the hill.

I see your point but I have no experience shooting Palma, F-Class and/or Full Bore as I can't physically. I have no idea how big your aiming point is yet alone the scoring ring. I have not yet shot at 1,000 yards Benchrest but have had an invite to compete. My Light Gun 6.5x47 Lapua may not even make the grade.

I generally shoot out to 600 yards or there abouts, give or take metric conversions. I shoot at a 1 3/4" 10 Ring and try and keep 5 shot groups down to less than 2 1/2". The aiming point is fine crossed black lines about 1/16" thick with not dot on white paper. I shoot for score & group and the best I have done is a 5 shot group measuring 1.182" with one shot just outside the 10x scoring ring. My first ever national open competition and as nervous as hell with many seasoned shooters around. I shoot much better at club grade matches with no pressure upon one.

In practise if I can't put 5 shots in 1/4" at 200yards under ideal conditions then something is wrong with me and/or my loads.

I'm just an old broken down pensioner having fun in his last years, wished I had started target shooting 50 years ago.

My views are only that, my own and I am enjoying my last years. Who said you can't teach old dogs new tricks.

If I am able and still alive in the next 12 months I have about 10 shoots I may be able to attend shooting 550 yards (500 Metres)... my aim is to try my best to break the 1.00" mark for a 5 shot group and I'll be happy. I am certainly not in the same grade as so many very good Benchrest shooters.