• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Discussion of new book

Bryan Litz Ballistics

Site $$ Sponsor
All,

The latest book: "Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting - Volume 2" has shipped and you should all be receiving your pre-orders now.

I'm starting this thread to discuss any reactions and questions you have about the material. There are some things in there which may stir up some controversy, and I'd like to be able to address any questions about our procedure and how we arrived at our conclusions rather than let the 'internet' sort it out. Also, any simple things like typos we can address and fix for the future re-print.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

-Bryan

pic.jpg
 
I just finished mine. Excellent book but I did spot one typo.

On page 144 you say " When brass hardens, it doesn't take resizing as well........................ meaning it loses elasticity and you can get more spring back..........................

Of course, as brass work hardens rather than lose elasticity, it gains elasticity which is the ability to be deformed and (once the stress is removed) return to the original shape without permanent, plastic deformation. Elasticity and spring back are the same thing from a metallurgical point of view.

It's a minor nit pick, but it's something you might like to correct on the next print run.
 
Interesting read (all I have spoken to are saying this).
One question on the increased BC for the longer bullets within a certain lot. Does the potential value of sorting by length hold true if the meplats have the chisel shape?
 
Thanks Erick!

Mozella,
I got your email on this point. It's actually the thing that spurred the creation of this thread. I thought if there's typo's, I want to know! Thanks for the feedback.

3081FTR,
If we're thinking the same thing about the 'chisel' shape (I call it a barb), then I would say for that particular bullet with the chisel/barb, the BC trend may not hold (higher for longer bullet). But that bullet is likely to be an exception. In general, the longer bullets with well formed tips will be the 'higher BC' ones of the bunch.

-Bryan
 
Brian

Page 99. The data for pointing/trimming and live fire data for the .338 is labeled as .308. Noticed on the second read threw.

Erick
 
Eagerly reading it through now. Was very excited to read chapter 2 as it answers a lot of questions i have had. Glad to see such a thoughtful take on it.

I will be sure to post any questions or helpful ideas as i read. Brian your writing style continues to get better and better.
 
3081FTR,
If we're thinking the same thing about the 'chisel' shape (I call it a barb), then I would say for that particular bullet with the chisel/barb, the BC trend may not hold (higher for longer bullet). But that bullet is likely to be an exception. In general, the longer bullets with well formed tips will be the 'higher BC' ones of the bunch.
Thanks for the reply - the book is incredibly interesting and generates a lot of questions....having to read and reread some chapters. I have posted a picture to see if you would classify the example as well formed or not. Within a given box there are some that IMO would easily be classified as well formed but others could be dubious. If this example was not well formed then can I achieve the same outcome by measuring base to ogive and then using a tool such as a bob green comparator (BGC) (measures distances between lands engagement and seating stem contact on the ogive), using the longest combination of both measurements as a filter thus not having an odd pile due to the uneven angle on the meplat? Or is the BC benefit simply in the ogive length and shape (being longer) and a tool such as the BGC achieves the desired outcome as well?

Out of interest (I may have missed this) was any analysis completed on precision for high tension vs low tension. I can see an inferred improved outcome where SD is significantly improved in some cases.
 

Attachments

  • WP_20160709_002.jpg
    WP_20160709_002.jpg
    529.6 KB · Views: 96
Last edited:
Ordered my two volume set this afternoon. I called about 4:30pm, and Brian's sister made the extra effort to label and box the two books, and make a run to the PO when she left the office.
That is what I call customer service.

I am really, really looking forward to reading the set.

Rich
 
Bryan,

I read your sections on various treatments of brass with great interest. I would have liked to see precision data on some of them in addition to the chronograph data. Perhaps I missed it while doing my first read through, but sample size data for two of the most controversial ones (Annealing and flash holes) is important to my understanding of the results.

I would also like to see a bigger focus back on seating force/neck tension. While your testing data correlates well the result of using more or less as a group, I didn't see anything about mixed lots of neck tensions. Maybe for a future volume? (I'm interested in what I can get away with in a pinch).
 
I really liked the book especially the chapter over annealing. It really put a conclusion on the benefit to annealing is. At the end of the bullet pointing chapter There was a mention of a live fire test on bullet sorting. I would like to see that in an up coming volume. Oal v. Base to ogive v. Weight etc.
 
I just ordered mine.....the real answer to all these questions is your own trial and error....but most of us don't have that much time....so hopefully these books cut that trial and error time by 8
 
On page 77 you say "...the closest range you can get to is 100 yards, you can utilize that range without the irrational fear that the bullets won't group well at 100."

I'm assuming you meant "...won't group well at 1000."
 
I didn't know this was a "find the typo" competition ;-) I remember finding a few, as well as a couple times when I thought I drew a conclusion from the data that you didn't mention... as I re-read I'll post up.

I was very pleased with the book. Cal's barrel test was great, although those tubes are out of my price range. The dispersion article was great in that I finally have something to point people to when that old saw gets trotted out. I have been doing quite a bit with aiming points, myself, and would really like to see work on that. I've been drawing them up in Visio with some to-scale crosshairs, trying to get very accurate aiming points for the rather fat (0.06mRad) crosshairs in my tactical-style scope. It really does make a difference, especially at longer range.

The reloading information and .22 data were the real meat for me - although certain areas could be fleshed out more with additional live fire time (a precious resource, for sure), they provided a great starting point for the precision reloader who hears on this forum (and benchrest.com) that you MUST weight-sort brass, trim and point your bullets, anneal every firing, etc. Having the gains laid out for certain situations allows one to focus their efforts on the best returns for their time and money. The fact that multiple calibers were used in all the tests adds additional usefulness.

I agree with your final assessment of the .22 ammo test - it's hardly conclusive, but the compiled data is very useful. I'm actually in the process of building a long-range 22LR setup, and it's hard to find good data. While excellent short-range precision is a well-documented pursuit, absolute mechanical precision isn't that important when lobbing 40gr pills to 300yd at 1050fps. A good BC and consistency are more important - I photocopied the charts out of that section and used them to fill my shopping cart with .22LR ammo to test in my new gun, selecting high, consistent BCs with reasonable SD numbers.

Finally, just having the BC of the bullets was great! I pulled a bullet from my CCI SV ammo and measured it (0.500") and plugged that into my app along with my measured velocity and your BC numbers. I was easily able to go 10 for 10 on a 12" plate at 300 yards with that data, using a plain-jane 10/22 that's only good for 2MOA at 50yd! (It was dead-calm out.) It really is a lot like taking a .308 out to 1000yds, as evidenced by spinning almost 3 complete revolutions of my turret to handle the 155" of drop to 300yd.

One question on the .22 data... what are the grayed-out boxes for? I couldn't find an explanation in the text, but maybe I just missed it. I got that the bold were higher-than average BCs, but most of the gray were just a few types of match ammo without any easy to discern pattern.
 
Got mine, like it very much.....can see vol 4,5,6 in the future

Which powder scale did you use for testing on all test?

Why not test other methods of bullet sorting? Base to ogive, bearing surface, etc?


Why not use more competition rifles for testing, you so often talk about competitions but state you use sammi rifles with "short" bbls in your testing, (example a 24" 7wsm bbl) isn't your target audience using "custom" guns 98% of the time or is hunting crowd 50%? You state the reason in the book, but the real results could be different , no? Just state the chambe you are using

How many rounds in total were fired for this book?
 
On page 77 you say "...the closest range you can get to is 100 yards, you can utilize that range without the irrational fear that the bullets won't group well at 100."

I'm assuming you meant "...won't group well at 1000."

No, I think that's as it should be. The point is that you can test at 100 and be confident that there is no weird effect that invalidates your short range testing.
 
No, I think that's as it should be. The point is that you can test at 100 and be confident that there is no weird effect that invalidates your short range testing.

Why would you have an irrational fear that your rifle won't group well at 100 if you are looking at the 100 yard groups?
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
165,596
Messages
2,199,533
Members
79,013
Latest member
LXson
Back
Top