Hello, my first post on the forum. I have an Anschutz MPR 64 that I converted to single shot and mounted the barreled action in a 64 match stock to be used for bench rest shooting. I want to use diopter sights, but have no experience with them beyond a basic Williams sight. I've done some research, but haven't found a resource that explains what I need to consider or what my options might be. Can anyone suggest a resource? I checked out the optics forum before posting here, but most of the discussions seemed to be about scopes and red dots etc. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
Diopter sights
- Thread starter Mister Earle
- Start date
JohnW...ski
Gold $$ Contributor
Here is what I use for High Power and indoor small bore.
Rear - Ghemann #530 Iris w/1.5 Magnification
Front - Ghemann Front Iris w/Horizontal Bar #520A22 22mm 2.4mm-4.4mm
#520C22 22mm 2.9mm-4.9mm
I use the 520A front for high power and the 520C for indoor small bore.
I think the 520A being able to adjust smaller would be better for benchrest.
I put a 32X scope on one of my match rifles and shot several 5 shot groups from the bench at 200 yards then shot the iron sights with the above Ghemann inserts shooting at an SR target, (13 inch bullseye). The groups were identical. Of course your eyesight has to be up to the task.
John
Rear - Ghemann #530 Iris w/1.5 Magnification
Front - Ghemann Front Iris w/Horizontal Bar #520A22 22mm 2.4mm-4.4mm
#520C22 22mm 2.9mm-4.9mm
I use the 520A front for high power and the 520C for indoor small bore.
I think the 520A being able to adjust smaller would be better for benchrest.
I put a 32X scope on one of my match rifles and shot several 5 shot groups from the bench at 200 yards then shot the iron sights with the above Ghemann inserts shooting at an SR target, (13 inch bullseye). The groups were identical. Of course your eyesight has to be up to the task.
John
Thanks to you both
Thanks for that - I did not know irises were magnified. I'll check out your product selections.
Don't mind paying if I know what I'm getting
Thanks for the help.Depending on your optical correction, this might help. Screws into rear sight (not sure about the Williams though) also needs Gehman 510 iris or similar.
Products
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wkdickinson
Gold $$ Contributor
Someone should probably ask what you have for front and rear sights on the rifle, given your "Williams" reference.
Not by default. A standard iris is just a variable size hole for adjusting brightness. The next step up is adding colour filters or polarisers to tone down bright sunlight or enhance the contrast between the target and paper. Then you get the magnifies, usually a "dioptre" in English, or Optik in German. The magnification is very slight, only 0.5x. The real advantage is the dioptre can adjust your focal distance. Unless you are naturally a teeny bit short sighted (-0.5 prescription), you have to consciously focus on the foresight. The tiny rearsight aperture helps by deepening and narrowing your focal range, but not always enough, especially for middle aged eyes. Some shooters get prescription glasses or a monocle lens just for shooting, often adding +0.5 to their distance prescription so the lens puts their focus just ahead of the foresight. But a Dioptre eyepiece (magnifying iris) is another; if you don't have a good optician nearby, or your prescription changes frequently, a Dioptre eyepiece has advantages.
Don't be tempted to screw down an iris as small as it goes. Yes, the smaller aperture extends your focal depth so the foresight/target are clearer, but the sight picture will be really dark, and strains your eye.
Here are a few beginner aperture sight threads:
Need some help with iron sight info...
Believe it or not, I am part of a growing group of “old guys” here in Arizona shooting iron sights on our vintage benchrest rifles. My personal rifle for this effort is a thumb hole, Anschutz 1410 with Anschutz 7202 rear and the standard Anschutz front sight. In addition I have added a Germann...
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I don't know if i can share any technical info on the fancy diopter sights but a few of us have been using peep sights at my longrange rimfire matches. I'm 66 and wear progressive glasses and can see pretty good far away but need glasses to see closeup.
I've found that I prefer larger apertures, I know most will say to go as small as possible to help center the target in the apertures. The eye will magically center everything up and with practice group sizes will equal scoped group sizes.
I have a separate set of 4moa targets at each distance ( 25 yards to 197 yards) which may seem large but the groups are easily half that on the plates. You have to be able to see a target to hit it.
Yes, we can see smaller targets but it doesn't take too many shots to cause eye strain and make seeing the targets very difficult. I mainly use Redfields or Anschutz sights with the clear inserts in the front. A buddy that also shoots peeps with us hates the clear insert but they work for us.
I can't count how many shooters I've got to try my peep rimfires and with a little bit of explaining how peeps work they'd be getting consistent hits on small plates at 197 yards. Even at 1000 yards on targets you can see it's pretty amazing what you can hit.
From what I've seen others say about their experience with peeps is most try to use too small an aperture, especially on the rear. Some people just naturally are able to center multiple things up perfectly which makes it look easy.
Looking thru two tubes with holes in them and lining up on a small target and putting a projectile exactly where you intended is a feeling you have to experience. I just wish I'd have had more interest in metallic sight when I had really good vision. Even now it's great to hit things that the scoped shooters are proud of hitting.
A short video showing my range targets including the peep targets.
Good luck on your quest
Topstrap
I've found that I prefer larger apertures, I know most will say to go as small as possible to help center the target in the apertures. The eye will magically center everything up and with practice group sizes will equal scoped group sizes.
I have a separate set of 4moa targets at each distance ( 25 yards to 197 yards) which may seem large but the groups are easily half that on the plates. You have to be able to see a target to hit it.
Yes, we can see smaller targets but it doesn't take too many shots to cause eye strain and make seeing the targets very difficult. I mainly use Redfields or Anschutz sights with the clear inserts in the front. A buddy that also shoots peeps with us hates the clear insert but they work for us.
I can't count how many shooters I've got to try my peep rimfires and with a little bit of explaining how peeps work they'd be getting consistent hits on small plates at 197 yards. Even at 1000 yards on targets you can see it's pretty amazing what you can hit.
From what I've seen others say about their experience with peeps is most try to use too small an aperture, especially on the rear. Some people just naturally are able to center multiple things up perfectly which makes it look easy.
Looking thru two tubes with holes in them and lining up on a small target and putting a projectile exactly where you intended is a feeling you have to experience. I just wish I'd have had more interest in metallic sight when I had really good vision. Even now it's great to hit things that the scoped shooters are proud of hitting.
A short video showing my range targets including the peep targets.
Good luck on your quest
Topstrap
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Absolutely a decent sized aperture is important. Tight apertures have two disadvantages. First is "triggeritis", when one spends too long holding while waiting for the target to centre. The second us reliability. The inside of the foresight looks like a sharp edge, but it's not. It's really blurred by diffracted light, light coming in at odd angles. This blur is visible if the foresight overlaps the target. That's the danger, as a very tight foresight puts the blur so close to the target, and can be hard to differentiate. Much better to have a larger aperture where the target comes nowhere near the foresight.
A larger aperture is also brighter. Our eyes, well really our brain, can resolve much smaller differences in brightness than it can movement or size. So we see when the foresight is off centre more by brightness than size. Our brain also likes symmetry, and is good at recognising symmetrical patterns. No magic I'm afraid.
I certainly agree about target size. If anything 4 MoA is a bit small by prone and 3-P standards. The ISSF/Olympic based targets we use in Britain are 8 MoA. US NRA small ore targets are slightly smaller. I have some pre-1947 targets that are 5-6 MoA, and these are hard, harder than the bucket-size scoring rings suggest.
wkdickinson
Gold $$ Contributor
I shot NRA high-power and long-range seriously for a long time, back when you had to use aperture sights. I started with a 308 M70, Redfield International rear sight w/Merritt "Master Disk" and a Moe's front sight body with removable apertures. I ended with a AR15 match rifle ("space gun") with Phoenix front and rear sights, Anschutz 9530 rear iris diopter 1.5X and an Anschutz 9523 2.3-4.3 adjustable front iris, in a Gehrman body. I also used the same rear diopter and an Anschutz 9520 2.8-4.8mm front iris on my Anschutz 1413 Super Match in doors in the winter.
From my experience I believe you need to open the front aperture up as much as possible, to allow as much light in as possible. The human eye has an amazing ability to recognize when the "black" is centered in the aperture and the bigger "line-of-white" you have the easier that is. The rear sight is a bit different, you need to think of it as a camera lens, the more stopped down it is the great depth of field you have. But there is a point of diminishing returns here. If your stop it down too much you don't get enough light to your eye, especially if it is a dark day.
Experience is really the only way to know what works for you. Buy the "good stuff" and figure out how it works. Just remember, with aperture sights, more open is always better.
From my experience I believe you need to open the front aperture up as much as possible, to allow as much light in as possible. The human eye has an amazing ability to recognize when the "black" is centered in the aperture and the bigger "line-of-white" you have the easier that is. The rear sight is a bit different, you need to think of it as a camera lens, the more stopped down it is the great depth of field you have. But there is a point of diminishing returns here. If your stop it down too much you don't get enough light to your eye, especially if it is a dark day.
Experience is really the only way to know what works for you. Buy the "good stuff" and figure out how it works. Just remember, with aperture sights, more open is always better.
Should probably add an explanatory note, that when all the various posters sensibly talk of using a larger aperture, this is related to target size. An aperture 1.5x larger than the target is probably the minimum. An aperture 2x larger is better IMO. A thin foresight ring allows a slightly tighter fit than a thick ring, but is a harder to see for the most.
Barrel length and sight radius, the distance between the sights, also affects aperture size. You'll read of smallbore prone shooters recommending apertures around 3.6-4.0mm. That's for a full length, 27in-ish barrel, and the 8 moa diameter ISSF target. Shooting a 20in barrel at Topstrap's 4moa targets calls for a smaller aperture.
Barrel length and sight radius, the distance between the sights, also affects aperture size. You'll read of smallbore prone shooters recommending apertures around 3.6-4.0mm. That's for a full length, 27in-ish barrel, and the 8 moa diameter ISSF target. Shooting a 20in barrel at Topstrap's 4moa targets calls for a smaller aperture.
Thanks,Not by default. A standard iris is just a variable size hole for adjusting brightness. The next step up is adding colour filters or polarisers to tone down bright sunlight or enhance the contrast between the target and paper. Then you get the magnifies, usually a "dioptre" in English, or Optik in German. The magnification is very slight, only 0.5x. The real advantage is the dioptre can adjust your focal distance. Unless you are naturally a teeny bit short sighted (-0.5 prescription), you have to consciously focus on the foresight. The tiny rearsight aperture helps by deepening and narrowing your focal range, but not always enough, especially for middle aged eyes. Some shooters get prescription glasses or a monocle lens just for shooting, often adding +0.5 to their distance prescription so the lens puts their focus just ahead of the foresight. But a Dioptre eyepiece (magnifying iris) is another; if you don't have a good optician nearby, or your prescription changes frequently, a Dioptre eyepiece has advantages.
Don't be tempted to screw down an iris as small as it goes. Yes, the smaller aperture extends your focal depth so the foresight/target are clearer, but the sight picture will be really dark, and strains your eye.
Here are a few beginner aperture sight threads:
Need some help with iron sight info...
Believe it or not, I am part of a growing group of “old guys” here in Arizona shooting iron sights on our vintage benchrest rifles. My personal rifle for this effort is a thumb hole, Anschutz 1410 with Anschutz 7202 rear and the standard Anschutz front sight. In addition I have added a Germann...www.rimfirecentral.com
Wow, thanks for all the great info and sources.
I'm in the process of getting my first target rifle for ISSF style shooting - I know what it's like to look at diopter sights online and get overwhelmed! I found this YouTube channel of help, check through the videos that involve sights - there's some animations that demonstrate what they're like to look through and what adjustments some of them allow.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1fIOhE5M3jl7HDDxvPeGw/videos
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1fIOhE5M3jl7HDDxvPeGw/videos
Great info, thanks!
dc.fireman
Sling & Irons!
I will add this to what the others have said:
If you stick with this for awhile, your preferences for sight picture may change slightly over time. A wise old friend/coach of mine told me long ago, when I was first getting into the ISSF & NRA style of shooting, " buy once, cry once."
Spend your money on quality sighting items, take care of them, and don't be afraid to try new things. You can usually re-sell those quality items if they don't work out for you. Centra/MEC, and Gehmann are standard manufacturers of these items (my personal preference being Centra/MEC), and they make quality items, at a price. You can also check the other site @Tim Slater mentioned, and often find a retiring shooter who is selling off their equipment.
If you are ever asked whether you prefer 'Match Rifle' or 'Service Rifle' directions for sighting items, it will be your preference. If you don't yet have a preference, go with Match Rifle direction, that is, a clockwise turn of the adjustment knob will move the bullet impact 'down' or 'left'(think of the adjustment knob as a screw, pushing the bullet hole in the direction you turn the screw).
Good luck, and remember - we all started out just like you.
-tc
If you stick with this for awhile, your preferences for sight picture may change slightly over time. A wise old friend/coach of mine told me long ago, when I was first getting into the ISSF & NRA style of shooting, " buy once, cry once."
Spend your money on quality sighting items, take care of them, and don't be afraid to try new things. You can usually re-sell those quality items if they don't work out for you. Centra/MEC, and Gehmann are standard manufacturers of these items (my personal preference being Centra/MEC), and they make quality items, at a price. You can also check the other site @Tim Slater mentioned, and often find a retiring shooter who is selling off their equipment.
If you are ever asked whether you prefer 'Match Rifle' or 'Service Rifle' directions for sighting items, it will be your preference. If you don't yet have a preference, go with Match Rifle direction, that is, a clockwise turn of the adjustment knob will move the bullet impact 'down' or 'left'(think of the adjustment knob as a screw, pushing the bullet hole in the direction you turn the screw).
Good luck, and remember - we all started out just like you.
-tc
Thank you,
It's worth mentioning that most European sights (all Anschutz, all Gehmann, and most Centra) ONLY turn in Match rifle direction. I think the Centra 10-50 is the only Euro sight that comes with SR clicks; that's because it was originally designed for Palma shooting.
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