Dillon Precision for F-class ?
- Thread starter Hammer
- Start date
.
In the last few years I have been shooting Trap (shotgun) and it is common to have single-day 600 shot marathons and tournaments can have 2,400 registered rounds before the shoot-offs.
In my handguns days, IHMSA competitions could be 80 rounds per class at the internationals with three classes in a day.
Forty years ago back when I played with Benchrest rifle, shooters loaded their 5-rounds plus sighters between shooting relays in the same highly prepared brass using hand dies and an arbor press and threw powder charges with a B&M.
I am getting back into target rifle now. Do the rifle target competitions today call for the benchrest loading approach I remember or are they more along the lines of needing Trap shell quantities ?
.
In the last few years I have been shooting Trap (shotgun) and it is common to have single-day 600 shot marathons and tournaments can have 2,400 registered rounds before the shoot-offs.
In my handguns days, IHMSA competitions could be 80 rounds per class at the internationals with three classes in a day.
Forty years ago back when I played with Benchrest rifle, shooters loaded their 5-rounds plus sighters between shooting relays in the same highly prepared brass using hand dies and an arbor press and threw powder charges with a B&M.
I am getting back into target rifle now. Do the rifle target competitions today call for the benchrest loading approach I remember or are they more along the lines of needing Trap shell quantities ?
.
Hammer said:
You mentioned F-class as the competition you are interested in so I will address that. I know the people placing well in the Long Range F-Class matches are using techniques that are far closer to the benchrest style than the trap shell quantity reloaders.
Competition is very tough in F-class and two day competitions are often decided by one point between first and second, and this is out of a possible of around 1,000 points for a two day comp.
Hammer said:
The short answer is yes they load like the best of the bench rest guys, but they need larger quantities so they can't load at the range. Like you, I also shot ATA Trap, IMSA, Long range handgun silhouette and even some Olympic shooting. These folks shooting F-TR and F-Open are really good. A lot of them have had some very specialized training as well. If you want to shoot just for fun, anything will work and everyone will be happy to have you out there shooting with them. if you want to have any chance of actually winning, you can't give up even the slightest edge. 1/2 MOA is just the starting point to get in the game. But you need that at the highest possible velocity with the highest BC bullet, because everyone else is shooting like that, while your target is 1000 yards away. After your equipment and your cartridges are that consistently accurate, only then can you start to try to learn to read the wind. Some of these guys are like magicians at that. The wind shifts form +10 Left to +10 right, and they stay in the 10 and X rings while the rest of us are trying hard to stay in the 8 ring.
Dillon makes good reloading equipment that is fine for hunting rounds or handgun cartridges, but you'll have to step your loading way beyond that if you want to become competitive in F class.
I use a 550 for F-open and F-TR (family of 5) and firmly believe there is nothing preventing a Dillon press from producing the very best ammo. Prior to switching to a Dillon, I measured hundreds of cases during the F/L sizing and bullet seating stages: comparing between a Redding Big Boss, Harrell's Turret, and Dillon 550B press. I found no measurable difference between the run-out with the three presses. Set up just about any decent press correctly and it will work well: including Dillons.
Sizing and seating dies, on the other hand, cause a huge variation in ammo quality: especially the sizers. Get a poor sizing die and there is nothing you can do to reduce run-out other than replace the die. After a lot of testing, I've concluded non-bushing F/L sizing dies produce better run-out than bushing sizing dies: consistently better. Forster honed dies are a cost-effective alternative to full-custom dies, but you need to check the quality....some of mine needed to be returned
As far as who is using a Dillon, I am aware of a few top sling and F-Class shooters using one.
Sizing and seating dies, on the other hand, cause a huge variation in ammo quality: especially the sizers. Get a poor sizing die and there is nothing you can do to reduce run-out other than replace the die. After a lot of testing, I've concluded non-bushing F/L sizing dies produce better run-out than bushing sizing dies: consistently better. Forster honed dies are a cost-effective alternative to full-custom dies, but you need to check the quality....some of mine needed to be returned
As far as who is using a Dillon, I am aware of a few top sling and F-Class shooters using one.
Whidden's tool head with the floating dies work rather well, at least well enough to win LR prone matches at Perry.
Dillon can be a great press but you have to do A LOT of work to it. From getting rid of any and all slop/play, lots of polishing, and my personal favorite upgrade, the UniqueTek powder measure. I load some damn accurate ammo with mine. However, I load all of my long range ammo on a single stage RCBS press. Anything bigger then 223 is just too damn expensive to waste on 1/2 moa. :-\
I use a Dillon Super 1050 for everything but bullet seating and powder. The case feeder sure saves a lot of case handling.
I shoot F-Open
I shoot F-Open
I shoot HP, MR Prone and LR Prone - 30+ days of matches per year. I load all of my competition ammo on a Dillon 550 with a couple of mods. I use the Whidden CNC floating die toolheads and pin them in place. This fixes the biggest problem with the Dillon, which is uneven pressure and twist of the toolhead. You can prove this to yourself by loading a round all by itself through the stages(no other cases on the press) and then measuring runout. Compare with another round that was loaded when all stages were full, you will see a definite difference. Using the pinned toolheads and floating dies results in runout #'s as good as a single stage press. I also do not use the powder measure. I pour weighed charges in over the top through a powder funnel die at stage 2. With my fast powder dispenser, I am still able to load 150 rounds per hour of the highest quality ammo I can produce, even in this semi-progressive mode. Leaves me with a lot more time to do things I enjoy, I.E. NOT reloading. If I were to shoot F-Class, I would use the same methods and would not feel handicapped in any way.
Just a quetion Erud...
When you reload on the progressive, how/when do you get the lube off the case. Is your 150 an hour done starting with a clean unsized case?
It seems a lot of shooters with a progressive re-size separate, then prime with a hand primer, charge separate using a scale instead of dumping. Then seat the bullet. Seems like it might has well be done on a single stage.
I get 150 an hour off my Rockchucker, but that doesn't include the resize and prime, which I do in batches. I just charge and seat as needed.
I use the Dillon for pistol, using carbide dies, I put a cleaned case in and crank until I have a loaded round, doing all operations from resize to seat without the round leaving the loader. I sure wouldn't do that with match rifle ammo.
Thanks, Ken
When you reload on the progressive, how/when do you get the lube off the case. Is your 150 an hour done starting with a clean unsized case?
It seems a lot of shooters with a progressive re-size separate, then prime with a hand primer, charge separate using a scale instead of dumping. Then seat the bullet. Seems like it might has well be done on a single stage.
I get 150 an hour off my Rockchucker, but that doesn't include the resize and prime, which I do in batches. I just charge and seat as needed.
I use the Dillon for pistol, using carbide dies, I put a cleaned case in and crank until I have a loaded round, doing all operations from resize to seat without the round leaving the loader. I sure wouldn't do that with match rifle ammo.
Thanks, Ken
Ken,
The 150/hour number is the whole loading process, aside from case prep. Aside from eliminating the Dillon powder measure and using my own scale/dispenser, I use the 550 in the way it was designed:
Station 1 = size and prime
Station 2 = powder
Station 3 = seater
Station 4 = empty
As to the question of lube, I guess I have to reveal my dirty little secret. I use Hornady One Shot case lube and I do not clean it off. I stand up 50 cases in a loading block, spray them with One Shot from one direction, rotate the block 180º, and spray the other side. Wait about 2 minutes for them to dry a little, then start loading. When they come off the press they are ready to shoot. People are always skeptical when I tell them this, but the results show up on the chrono and on target. Here's a recent group from load development with one of my Palma rifles. Target is NRA MR1 600 yard target scaled for 300 meters on our club's Megalink electronic target system, shot with sling & iron sights:
There is more than one way to skin a cat.
The 150/hour number is the whole loading process, aside from case prep. Aside from eliminating the Dillon powder measure and using my own scale/dispenser, I use the 550 in the way it was designed:
Station 1 = size and prime
Station 2 = powder
Station 3 = seater
Station 4 = empty
As to the question of lube, I guess I have to reveal my dirty little secret. I use Hornady One Shot case lube and I do not clean it off. I stand up 50 cases in a loading block, spray them with One Shot from one direction, rotate the block 180º, and spray the other side. Wait about 2 minutes for them to dry a little, then start loading. When they come off the press they are ready to shoot. People are always skeptical when I tell them this, but the results show up on the chrono and on target. Here's a recent group from load development with one of my Palma rifles. Target is NRA MR1 600 yard target scaled for 300 meters on our club's Megalink electronic target system, shot with sling & iron sights:
There is more than one way to skin a cat.
I can see that using a progressive press like Erud does by measuring the charges separately would eliminate one of my largest concerns about progressive presses. Measuring separately on a progressive could help greatly for the LR game where little deviations in the powder charge can show up as large vertical deviations on the target.
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.