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Different kind of primer test

F Class John

NRA Life Member
Gold $$ Contributor
Take this data for what it is. It’s just a test I was able to do so I did. I know it won’t prove anything to some and may prove everything to others. It’s just data.

Primers shot out of brass only into a shot marker for chronograph values. No powder or bullets to skew the test.

Yes, primers create a supersonic cone for the first 6-8ft.

edit: for reference these were Federal GM210M

Sealed garage, no interference of any kind to the Shotmarker
upload_2020-2-18_15-26-13.jpeg

Primers sorter by .02 of a grain. Only used six of the lowest and six of the highest plus six randoms.

5.36 grain primers Avg Vel 1517fps
upload_2020-2-18_15-25-22.png


5.48 gr primers. Avg Vel 1518
upload_2020-2-18_15-27-1.png


6 random primers. Avg Vel 1517
upload_2020-2-18_15-28-2.png
 
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your "random" show the errors of your way.
not enough random
it is smaller than a weighed selection
I think I like the idea, need more data than just 3x6
do not stop now
 
your "random" show the errors of your way.
not enough random
it is smaller than a weighed selection
I think I like the idea, need more data than just 3x6
do not stop now
Each group was six shots so they’re all the same. Random wasn’t smaller than weighed??
 
Your measurement error is most likely greater than the variability in the data you are trying to measure. Anyway it is an interesting test concept and may have other applications.
 
Supposed to be a lot of lead in primers. Probably not too healthy to do in a closed space.
 
Shot Marker's are 100% acoustic, there for do not get what an airsoft-ball would gain, other then being an added variable?
I was actually meaning a chrono or the shotmarker backed up to read the ball instead of the gases. I can remember the tests they did way back with the graph paper and the high speed cameras. Tons of random sparks that i cant imagine would read well thru either. Doesnt the shotmarker read the accoustics of a projectile going past the mics? One consistent projectile would be more reliable i would think and a primer only will push an airsoft ball just fine.
https://www.6mmbr.com/primerpix.html
 
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I was actually meaning a chrono or the shotmarker backed up to read the ball instead of the gases. I can remember the tests they did way back with the graph paper and the high speed cameras. Tons of random sparks that i cant imagine would read well thru either. Doesnt the shotmarker read the accoustics of a projectile going past the mics? One consistent projectile would be more reliable i would think and a primer only will push an airsoft ball just fine.
https://www.6mmbr.com/primerpix.html
Shotmarkers read the sonic cone that passes. It doesn’t care what the projectile is (or that there’s a projectile at all) so long as it’s supersonic. My idea was to test with ZERO variables such as bullets or powder. I wanted to test simply the air pressure that a primer moves. Consider the test a proof of concept that others may use for ideas. That’s all.
 
@Dusty Stevens & @F Class John
Thinking on it more, there might be some merit to an airsoft-ball to aid in the primer pressure reading (velocity) if it was muzzle loaded, at say a consistent and measured depth of like 1" from the crown (might be worth testing to see if it would aid). But having the primer gas push them all the way down the barrel, would add to many variables and loss in gas pressure IMO.
 
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One common reason for measuring/comparing primer brisance is to determine whether primer weight can actually be used as a valid surrogate for primer brisance. The primary benefit or reason for doing this is for the purpose of sorting primers. It is very easy for anyone with a good analytical balance to weigh primers accurately, whereas it is not so easy to directly measure brisance. For such endeavors, the assumption has to be made that differences in primer weight are due to a difference in the amount of priming compound (i.e. that cup and anvil weights are very uniform - #1). It is conceptually not much different than the idea of sorting cases by weight as a surrogate for volume. An additional assumption must also be made; any variance observed in the brisance test output must necessarily translate to a proportional change in velocity (#2). If either of those assumptions is invalid, then it will be difficult, if not impossible, to effectively correlate primer weight with brisance.

I really like John's rather clever and out-of-the-box-thinking approach to adapt the ShotMarker for this purpose. This is the kind of thinking that can often lead to new and worthwhile discoveries. From his results, it doesn't appear as though there was any significant difference detected between the lightest, heaviest, or random distribution of primer weights using this approach.

Frankly, I am not too surprised given the marginal difference in the two sets of primer weights (0.12 gr total range, or ~7.8 mg). The weight difference between the High/Low primers in John's test translates to only about 2.2% of the total primer weight, which is a very small weight difference in light of assumption #1 (above). The weights of primer anvils and cups would have to be extremely uniform in order not to invalidate the assumption that any difference in primer weight is solely due to priming compound. In the past, I have weighed a few boxes of Fed205 primers and I came to a similar conclusion. In my hands, the total High/Low weight range was 5.9 mg (~.09 gr), which was about 2.5% of the total primer weight. In other words, detecting a difference in primer brisance that is proportional to a difference in primer weight, which is of itself only a very small fraction of the total primer weight, is asking a lot.

In any event, I give John full marks for coming up with a novel approach to measure primer brisance using the ShotMarker. However, you might want to be careful tossing these results out in public forums like this, John. I haven't yet purchased a ShotMarker and if Adam hears about your test, he is liable to start advertising and selling them as both an E-target AND Primer Testing Apparatus with a commensurate increase in MSRP, which would be problematic for me. ;)


The other item of interest that this report has brought back to my attention is with regard to assumption #2 (above). Specifically, no matter what method is used to quantify or compare primer output (i.e. brisance), we must assume that any change in primer output is accompanied by a proportional change in velocity. If not, there is no reason to even conduct such a test. Because of my background as a scientist, I am usually a strong advocate for isolating a single independent experimental variable as cleanly as possible, so as to minimize the influence of other variables on the interpretation of the results.

However, this is one case where I am not sure that is the best approach. The sole reason for measuring primer output is so that we can either support or disprove the notion that primer output is proportional to primer weight. The reason we wish to do this is so that we can then use primer weight as a simple and efficient method to sort primers and improve precision on the target. It's a very good reason for wanting to correlate the two factors, IMO. Arguments in favor of isolating the primer output variable as cleanly as possible are that other variables including charge weight, case volume, and bullet weight become important and may negatively influence interpretation of the results if velocity is used as a "downstream" readout for primer output. I view the situation in a slightly different way. Certainly, variance in charge weight, case volume, and bullet weight can affect velocity, making it more difficult to specifically isolate the effect of primer brisance on velocity. However, my thinking is that we can never completely remove these additional variables from the equation, at least, not if we want to actually put bullets into a target downrange and measure group size.

That being the case, I find it difficult to envision a better readout than measuring the velocity of the exact bullets you intend to reload. Yes, we certainly need to consider charge weight, case volume, and possibly bullet weight as additional variables in the equation when attempting to test primer brisance, but we generally try to keep any variance for those factors as tight as we possibly can, and they can never be removed from the actual shooting equation, anyhow. My argument for using velocity as a readout for primer brisance is that if we hold the tolerances of case volume, charge weight, and bullet weight just as tight during load development as we would when loading rounds for a match, that is the best we can ever do. The effect of those other variables won't be zero, but it should be as consistent from round to round as we can ever realistically make it. In other words, it's all about limiting sources of error. Under those conditions, we either will, or will not, be able to detect a difference in average velocity as primer weight changes. If we cannot detect a difference in either average velocity or the associated ES/SD value as a direct result of a difference in primer weight, then primer weight variance is probably not the limiting source of error and it becomes almost impossible to make any claims regarding any perceived beneficial effect on the target when using primers sorted by weight. For that to happen would require the existence of some velocity-independent mechanism by which primer brisance could affect precision, which seems pretty much like magic to me. Some modern chronographs are certainly more than capable of measuring velocity accurately down to a few fps, which ought to be sufficient to state whether primer weight actually did, or did not, have a measurable effect on average velocity or ES/SD. Obviously, the easiest way to approach such an experiment initially is to use primers from the Highest/Lowest weight extremes within a given Lot, as John did in his report here. I have been intending to do this test myself for some time, which is why I weight-sorted primers in the first place. However, sometimes life has a habit of getting in the way of a good shooting experiment and I simply haven't gotten around to doing the test as yet. When I do, I will certainly report the results here.

In any event, I appreciate John sharing his test results with the rest of us. Very interesting report!
 
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I like experiments :)
I do have some observations, if not to the physical experiments themselves, the hypothesis of what the results indicate.

I relate the cup/anvil/pellet of a primer to weight sorting of steel case X39 ammo (a whole case of 1000). A practice I started because a member on another forum blamed a squib on some light charges in the steel case rounds. I also guessed the variance in charges was why these rounds aren't better performers. Just to protect family shooting X39 steel case ammo I still sort out the light and heavy outliers.
Who knows, one day it may pay off.

The total cartridge weight is the result of process randomness in the case, the bimetal jacketed bullet, the primer, and the powder charge. By weight sorting these cheap rounds I assumed weights near the central mean would be better.
I was partly right. NEVER was able to relate charge weight to cartridge weight but by excluding the extremely light and extremely heavy rounds did improve my groups and eliminate some flyers.

All three components were made with isolated processes with separate distributions. Finding the lighter component (the powder) in a 3 component random down stream process didn't pan out.
I then proceeded to pull down rounds and weigh charge, case,bullet.
I found a distribution with all three components, but no real correlation to cartridge weight.
I could predict a light case with a light bullet and the heavy combination but anything in the middle could be any combination of case and bullet. All those pulled down rounds didn't go to waste though. I could group cases, bullets, and recharge with equalized charges
Mexican Match. Some were used with Murican bullets.

The typical range of 124gr bullets, excluding 1 or 2 per thousand was about 3 grains.
The range of cases was larger at about 5 grains.
And, the range of powder charge was about 0.2 grains.
The total powder charge was a little less than 10% of the total cartridge weight
I could find an empty case (or one that was severely undercharged) but that was about it.
The best performing rounds turned out to be the cartridges about 2 to 3 grains or so above or below the average.

I did catch some flack for sorting steel case rounds, much like brass sorters get, but it occupied some free time which probably kept me out of some other trouble.

So, back to primers.
There is a distribution in primer cup weight. It's a high volume process and even from a single lot there will be some variations.
Weighing less, the anvil will have some variation but that process has isolation from the cup process.
Weighing much less than either is the primer pellet and again, isolated from the other components.
The combined distribution of all three components results in a range of weights of the finished primer with the charge being a somewhat minuscule portion of the total weight.

A sample of CCI450 primers weighed on average 1.1886 carats.
Fired and somewhat cleaned primers averaged 1.1010 carats.
A different of 0.0876 carats. I guess that also included loss of the foil covering the charge pellet.
That's about 7.4% of the total primer weight.

Sounds like my Mexican Match SKS ammo all over again :)
 
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...A sample of CCI450 primers weighed on average 1.1886 carats.
Fired and somewhat cleaned primers averaged 1.1010 carats.
A different of 0.0876 carats. I guess that also included loss of the foil covering the charge pellet.
That's about 7.4% of the total primer weight...:)

This is an important point and indicates that there is very little room for weight variance in the cup/anvil portions of a primer before making an estimate of the relative amount of priming compound by weighing the entire primer becomes impossible. John's results using the ShotMarker are consistent with this idea.
 

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