Difference??? Bushing VS Full-length Die

[CaptainMal]

Putting together a 6MM Dasher to "hit a gong" at 565yards. Turning into one of the most expensive, dumber things I've done, but my 22 Ackley and 25 -06 heavy bbl. are not hitting it enough.

Now fellows are telling me to have Forster ream a full-length die to .267 instead of getting bushing dies because ..."dem bushing dies make a wrinkle above the shoulder".

I'm 66. Don't like "wrinkles". Neither does my wife. Is it true? Do bushing dies, "make a wrinkle"?

What should I do?

 

[Preacher]

A full length sizing die set up for your cases is as good as it gets, every thing is the same every time.
None of this shoot it till it gets to tight, and then full length size it stuff...
100 % consistent each and every time...

 

[TheBlueEyedBear]

I totally agree with PREAHCER!! My way to cure this was to purchase a set of custom dies from Neil Jones. It may not be the cheapest way to go, but,,,, that is the answer (for me and a number of other folks).
click this link for additional info: http://www.neiljones.com/
Good luck.

 

[bozo699]

Captianmal,
I personally feel that if you are trying to work up the perfect load for your rifle bushing dies are the way to go (If you can afford it) with several bushings you can play with neck turning,neck tension ect. ect. once you find the sweet load then you can have a full length die honed to achive the exact neck tension you want. If money is a problem,and it is for lots of us these days then pick a size you feel will work for your application and like preacher said its 100% consistant every time you load. Hope this helps and good luck,and if I remember correctly your new to the forum, WELCOME
Wayne.

 

[CaptainMal]

Ya know I wrote up a reply and then got a notice that "Bozo..." came in with another reply. Here was my original answer:
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Real interesting answer. Looks like I should go the full-length die route. If I do my guess is through Sinclair or direct through Forster

Kept the Neil Jones link. It's kind of like a "Catch 22".

Says: Uniform Headspace Maintained with Our Combined Sizing/Shoulder Bump Bushing.

That's a good thing though it goes on to say you send them a fired case to make the bushing.

You can't get a fired case unless you have dies to make and form a cartridge to get a fired case. That means you must first have dies to make a case to have a case to get dies.

??? Makes sense to me.

Thanks for the help. I'm totally new to this forum and "quality" reloading. Not new to shooting and reloading as I've been doing it since the '50's.

You guys are super good. Thanks for sharing your acquired skills.
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Now I will research a source for bushing dies as the silence on the "wrinkles" tells me that's not an issue and I could go that way for the versatility.

I have a super nice 40X with Broughton cut-rifle bbl. in 22-250 Ackley and another tuned Remington 700 with hvy bbl in 25-06 to shoot those gongs. Problem is the 22 makes 3" groups while the 25 is usually over 3" at that range. NOT enough to hit more than 1/2 of those 4" gongs when conditions change. Gonna spend 4 grand. Will buy any dies that work.

 

[mikecr]

Yeah, you can use a cheap(I mean disposable) bushing die to setup & fireform to your chamber. Then send a few cases to JLC Precision for the making of a prpoer FL bushing die.

Never in my life have I seen or even heard of 'wrinkles' from use of bushings. And all my dies have been bushing.

 

[BoydAllen]

You may find this article helpful. I would stick with method #2. http://www.6mmbr.com/6improvedform.html

As for the evils of bushing dies..ammunition for the most accurate rifles at 1-200 yd. is generally loaded with bushing FL dies, to pressures that are generally on the high side. So much for the inherent problems of bushing dies.

A custom matched chamber and FL die is the best that you can get, either one piece with the correct neck diameter, or bushing type. The easiest and cheapest way to achieve this is to start with the die, size some fired cases, measure them, and then order a chamber reamer that gives you the fit that you want. I have done this several times for myself and friends, and it has worked well.

Accuracy, has many components, the most important one is your gunsmith. Pick a smith that builds winning rifles in the caliber that you have chosen, and then follow his instructions.

 

[bozo699]

CaptianMal,
BoydAllen has gave sound advice (the most important one is your gunsmith. Pick a smith that builds winning rifles in the caliber that you have chosen) I think the
(WRINKLE) you are speaking of is when using a bushing die especially a neck bushing die you fall short of the neck-sholder junction,giving you a small step between neck and sholder junction. I am ordering a 6brx barrel tue morning and am going to try method #2 that is mentioned in boyds post.Good luck with your rifle build, keep us updated on how it all worked out for you
Wayne.

 

[CaptainMal]

Copied that article and noting each comment. Unreal what I'm learning.

My gunsmith is a guy at Manatee Co. Gun Club here near Bradenton, Fl. Still waiting for him to get the reamer. He did a Broughton barrel for me on the 40X and it is nice. That's all I know except he's done some other bench guns for locals. Will be his first Duster.

Savage dual-port bench action, McGowan 30" bbl, some kind of brake and cover, hand-made laminated stock from strips of wood (he's a cabinet maker) devcon bedded...2 grand. No scope yet or any components.

No reputation. Just someone who does it.

Will picture and comment as things go along.

 

[Cheechako]

Captain

How big is that gong? 565 yards is not that far (it's only mid-range). You should be able to hit it regularly with a 22 Ackley and/or 25-06, unless they are really terrible rifles, or it's a terribly small gong.

Why did you decide to go with a wildcat? A straight 6mm BR would have been just as good (maybe better) and you would not be facing all those expensive decisions about having custom dies made, etc, etc.

JMHO

Ray

 

[CaptainMal]

Good questions.

The gongs at 565 are 4" in diameter. There is also a 1,000 yard range at the club and they hold shoots there. Might try.

My 25-06 and the 22-250 AI are varmint guns. Scoped with 25 and 32X scopes, they both sport med. hvy bbls on tuned Remington actions. The 22 is a 40X. The 25 has a Holland brake, fluted and chyro'd bbl. Both are fun when I go back to Pa. for groundhogs and the 22 was for prairie dogs. Just didn't make it this year.

Best I've done is 7 hits out of 15 with the 25. Only 6 out of 15 with the 22 shooting Berger 77 gr. at 3100fps. The 22 has shot in the teens but usually is in the 2's. The 25 is .4's. Both at 100 years.

At 525yds. I show paper groups in the 3 - 4" range. Not good enough for gongs and worthless at 1,000 - if I wanted to try.

Just thought the Dasher would be fun. Pig in a poke. I don't know what I'm doing.

 

[bozo699]

Captian,
Those are nice rifles you have there,and shoot very well also,You should be very proud of them.I have know doubt your new build will even shoot better as you are gaining knowledge all the time and getting valuable trigger time in as well on very small gongs.I myself am learning every day and there is a wealth of knowledge here on 6br. You can sort out the b.s from the facts. guns and equipment are alot like fords and chevy's each guy has his favorites. I myself just like whatever works.
Wayne.

 

[RonAKA]

I think there are pros and cons to each approach.

FL with custom honed neck

Pros

- Same fit every load
- No question it will fit
- Simple to work with

Cons

- While it is the same fit every load, it is not the tightest fit
- Depending on the die, and whether or not it is full custom made, brass will be worked more in the body and shoulder area
- Over time your brass in the neck will probably thin. This means the bullet fit will be reduced, unless you purchase another custom honed neck die
- If the brass manufacturer changes neck thickness, then same problem
- Bullets do vary in diameter. If you use bullets (or cases) that differ significantly you may need to have more than one die made

Bump Bushing Die

Pros

- You can size your neck OD in 0.001" increments to your desire. Only needs a bushing
- You can partially size your neck so only half or 2/3 of the neck grips the bullet. The remaining unsized part of the neck fits the chamber neck with 0.001" clearance, and centers the cartridge in the chamber.
- Independent from sizing the neck you can bump the shoulder back any reasonable amount or not at all, or like another poster wanted, you can only bump the shoulder, and use another die on the neck.
- If the brass supplier, as Lapua for the 6BR has done, changes the neck thickness, then you can adjust by changing the bushing size, instead of the whole die.
- minimal working of the neck brass
- minimal working of the shoulder brass
- zero working of the body brass

Cons

- There is the donut or wrinkle issue. Because the bushing die cannot cleanly go right back to the shoulder you risk the formation of a donut or wrinkle in the neck. This is not really an issue unless you, seat different bullets with some going deeper into the neck than the donut.

My thoughts are that the decision goes to the bump/bushing die. The donut can be dealt with if it does appear. One simple solution is to use the expander ball either occasionally or every time you resize. Or, the neck ID can be reamed. What I can tell you is that with the bump/bushing die, you work the brass so very little, that it is hard to believe that the brass will not last forever.

Just my rambling thoughts on a difficult choice,

 

[bozo699]

Ron,
Not just rambling thoughts (SPOT ON FACTS) To tell you the truth I use all dies mentioned plus I use wilson seater dies also. Things change,your thoughts change,Idea's change.Me I need to have on hand any component and equipment I may need @ any moments notice.This isn't a cheap hobby @ the level we are in precision shooting. I have literally bought 1000s of $ worth of reloading equipment over the last couple of years and the brown truck still comes every other day!
a couple years age I would buy a new rifle $20 rcbs die 1 Lb of powder and some bullets (DONE DEAL) Not any more,new custom rifle-$250-$600 woth of dies and bushings 4 or 5 8lb can of powder so I dont run out of that lot same thing w/bullets-cases ect.ect. now I have $6000 in this new rifle and havn't shot it yet! This doesn't mean you can't have fun with a $300 savage and a basic reloaders kit,If that is all you can afford ( I was there @ one time belive me!!!) than by all means load for it shoot it and keep the sport alive and have fun doing it.Otherwise get your credit card out,make the owners of sinclair a little richer and have the most fun you can while you can.
Wayne.

 

[CaptainMal]

Ron...

Thanks for the comments. Know to put those together took time and effort. Now I have to start printing things, like your coments, out for reference.

You put much loose knowledge in perspective.

Thanks.