Dies and accuracy

[Barlow]

What is the real accuracy difference measured on target of a match grade rifle that shoots in the 1's and 2's with custom dies vs standard dies like Forster, RCBS etc. How much real difference is there in their accuracy? Just curious. Barlow

 

[Barlow]

Not one shooter has done this experiment. Barlow

 

[Shynloco]

This ought to be interesting. How many members up here own a "Match Grade Rifle", let alone custom dies made for that "Match Grade Rifle?" This is one for someone like Erik Cortina. Most "Match Grade Rifles" run around $7500 without glass. Now many of us have "Match Grade Barrels" but the receivers aren't exactly up to the standards that someone like Erik shoots in competition. But that begs the question, why the heck spend all that money on a "Match Grade Rifle" when you can get the same results from a $3500 rifle (Without Glass)? The answer just might be obvious in my book. It's almost like asking us to compare a nice Chevy to a Cadillac. Not all us can afford the later. But I'd like to hear some of the upcoming response anyways.

Alex

 

[Mozella]

I haven't done the testing myself; however, I read a terrific scientific paper written by The Third Butter Cutter which found that the custom dies reduce the Mean Radius by 3 percent at 600 yards, measured at the target using a 0.10 Euro coin.

You may not know about the man known as The Third Butter Cutter, but anyone who served in the U.S. Navy back in the day knows him as the most reliable source of accurate information. Other than him, I seriously doubt if anyone has done side-by-side testing of conventional dies vs custom dies using a high-end target rifle. Furthermore, if anyone has done these tests, you have to ask yourself if the results would show a difference in accuracy or a "real" difference in accuracy.

 

[LHSmith]

What is the real accuracy difference measured on target of a match grade rifle that shoots in the 1's and 2's with custom dies vs standard dies like Forster, RCBS etc. How much real difference is there in their accuracy? Just curious. Barlow

A truly accurate short-range benchrest rifle equipped with a scope that holds zero will show the difference. And ANY accuracy gain is essential to win in a game where the groups are measured to the 0.0001" or the one who totally obliterates the most 1/16" dots on the 25 record targets. If the case does not feed or extract the chamber smoothly throughout the entire match agg- you will not shoot to the rifles potential....a die matched to your chamber is a prerequisite to accomplish this. This is not to say that in a few instances you may be lucky enough to find an off the shelf die that matches your chamber. Also, on a rebarrel, you can buy chamber reamers that are dimensioned to match off -the -shelf dies.

 

[watercam]

I have used both standard and match dies in a couple of calibers with more or less identical results on paper in match rifles. Dies size/form brass. The more concentric, the more "Match Grade". Custom dies cut with the true dimensions of the chamber obviously make better brass for that chamber. That said, there are techniques to maximize the concentricity of one's brass with standard dies. O-rings under locking collars, polishing expander balls, polishing die interiors, etc.. Match bushing dies may size to the same dimensions but they do it with less stress on the neck and shoulder when set up properly. In my mind that is their biggest advantage.

 

[Hal]

One guy posted some groups using different factory dies to load the ammo, but I think he took down his post.
He was a good source of info.

Hal

 

[redrockranger]

I really am pleased with my Lee RGB 223 Remington dies. Prarie dogs fear that rifle.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

This ought to be interesting. How many members up here own a "Match Grade Rifle", let alone custom dies made for that "Match Grade Rifle?" This is one for someone like Erik Cortina. Most "Match Grade Rifles" run around $7500 without glass. Now many of us have "Match Grade Barrels" but the receivers aren't exactly up to the standards that someone like Erik shoots in competition. But that begs the question, why the heck spend all that money on a "Match Grade Rifle" when you can get the same results from a $3500 rifle (Without Glass)? The answer just might be obvious in my book. It's almost like asking us to compare a nice Chevy to a Cadillac. Not all us can afford the later. But I'd like to hear some of the upcoming response anyways.

Alex

I had better seriously start raising prices!

 

[Barlow]

I have used both standard and match dies in a couple of calibers with more or less identical results on paper in match rifles. Dies size/form brass. The more concentric, the more "Match Grade". Custom dies cut with the true dimensions of the chamber obviously make better brass for that chamber. That said, there are techniques to maximize the concentricity of one's brass with standard dies. O-rings under locking collars, polishing expander balls, polishing die interiors, etc.. Match bushing dies may size to the same dimensions but they do it with less stress on the neck and shoulder when set up properly. In my mind that is their biggest advantage.

But you have noticed no difference in accuracy between the two. Barlow

 

[Rsadams]

I think we have gotten into a click of ohh look that will give me an edge only to end up with a box full of no longer used stuff..
In a world of A+ equipment and we live in a world of A- shooters is the real problem... Of course this doesn't apply to everyone.. But if shooting was easy , everyone would be a champion... Most decent rifles ( even factory ) will out shoot most shooters...
I am a firm believer in practice... People were shooting great long before all the stuff we have now... I see people all the time who's scope cost more than my whole rifle or who have awesome rifles, that can't shoot for crap.. Like ANY sport , good equipment helps but is no substitute for skill , proper technique and practice... Once you have all that mastered everything from that point will be hand made , hand fit and very expensive...

 

[Webster]

What is the real accuracy difference measured on target of a match grade rifle that shoots in the 1's and 2's with custom dies vs standard dies like Forster, RCBS etc. How much real difference is there in their accuracy? Just curious. Barlow

Nobody that shoots in big matches with rifles that can shoot aggs around .200" or smaller would think of using off the shelf dies. The top shooters probably spend well over $10,000 a year for equipment and travel. So why wouldn't they buy custom dies? If your rifle consistantly shoots .300-.400" groups and you have good shooting skills I don't think the custom dies would help. Every one seems to forget about personal skills on the Reloading Forum. There is probably no more than about a hundred people in the US with skills to shoot 25 shot aggs very close to .200". Each person has to decide what their goals are and how much time and money you are willing to spend.

 

[T-shooter]

I think we have gotten into a click of ohh look that will give me an edge only to end up with a box full of no longer used stuff..
In a world of A+ equipment and we live in a world of A- shooters is the real problem... Of course this doesn't apply to everyone.. But if shooting was easy , everyone would be a champion... Most decent rifles ( even factory ) will out shoot most shooters...
I am a firm believer in practice... People were shooting great long before all the stuff we have now... I see people all the time who's scope cost more than my whole rifle or who have awesome rifles, that can't shoot for crap.. Like ANY sport , good equipment helps but is no substitute for skill , proper technique and practice... Once you have all that mastered everything from that point will be hand made , hand fit and very expensive...

Like they say, it's not what you have but what you can do with it. I shoot for fun and to increase my knowledge. If I had started with $10k in equipment I probably wouldn't be doing much better. Attention to details, practice, experimenting, and learning from mistakes is what helps. My entire setup, rifle, stock, scope, rings, rail, muzzle brake and shooting rests cost under $1,000 new, less shipping. Yet again with the right ammo and if I do my part, it will shoot 1/4 MOA groups consistently. But I've learned enough now that better equipment may actually help. But is it worth the price just for my own satisfaction? Where I've tied up more money is in other equipment, an FX scale and accessories, better dies, a couple chronographs, range finder, weather station, runout gauge, and countless small items. The accurately produced ammo is where most of my gains have come from. I'm too old to spend my days under the hood of a car trying to make it better so needed something physically easier and less expensive to get involved in.

 

[fguffey]

How much real difference is there in their accuracy? Just curious. Barlow

Barlow, reloaders have too many standard, there are bench resters that claim the case can fit the chamber like rat scat in a fiddle case. And then there are those bench resters quit messing with trick dies and started full length sizing their cases 10 years ago so understand I have trouble taking some of these guys seriously.

F. Guffey

 

[Rsadams]

Like they say, it's not what you have but what you can do with it. I shoot for fun and to increase my knowledge. If I had started with $10k in equipment I probably wouldn't be doing much better. Attention to details, practice, experimenting, and learning from mistakes is what helps. My entire setup, rifle, stock, scope, rings, rail, muzzle brake and shooting rests cost under $1,000 new, less shipping. Yet again with the right ammo and if I do my part, it will shoot 1/4 MOA groups consistently. But I've learned enough now that better equipment may actually help. But is it worth the price just for my own satisfaction? Where I've tied up more money is in other equipment, an FX scale and accessories, better dies, a couple chronographs, range finder, weather station, runout gauge, and countless small items. The accurately produced ammo is where most of my gains have come from. I'm too old to spend my days under the hood of a car trying to make it better so needed something physically easier and less expensive to get involved in.

Me to.. got out of the hot rod business and something I can do sitting down..lol
I also just shoot against myself or friends and started reloading to just make sure I have ammo when it disappears.. Unfortunately it turns into a how much better can I get it.. Sometimes I have to back it down when just loading plinker range ammo for fun.. It's hard to justify spending a bunch of time for that anymore.. BUT for my tactical rifle or even hunting rifles I do spend that time and it's worth it...

I spent way to long playing competition sports and have found over the years it's the people that ruin it.. Myself and a bunch of friends played billiards for decades to go play in Vegas but about 2.5 years ago I stopped because the people were unbearable and now so have friends for the same reason... I have loved shooting for over 40 years because it's a single person sport , only you can shoot that rifle or pistol straight.. Altho I still hear excuses.. I make none , if I pulled a shot well it is what it is..

My only concern now is shrinking ranges ( distance and in numbers ) and the never ending story of anti 2A people.. Also our sport is hurting over people not teaching others and spreading it or parents who are scared to participate with their kids.. I never would have dreamed that when I got older I would see grown men that could barely hit a target at 100 yards with a scope.. The times are a changing.. I take the time to help who wants help , teach who wants teaching and take people to the range who wants to go.. Even if that means I have to not shoot as much as I would like helping them..

 

[fguffey]

I see people all the time who's scope cost more than my whole rifle

I have a rifle that cost less than the scope, rings and mount, I paid #120.00 for the rifle. The reloading forums had a field day when the rifle was listed for auction, It was ugly, I had never seen a rifle that was uglier but I could not see how anyone could build anything that ugly without knowing what they were doing so I took a chance and bid on it for the sum of the parts.

Before taking it apart for the parts I took it to the range with 12 different loads of 10 rounds each. After firing I decided I could not improve on the accuracy of the rifle so I applied the leaver policy as in I lefter the way I founder.

F. Guffey

 

[dsculley]

I was at the range a while back, the guy next to me had recently received his custom rifle from the maker (a company with a very good reputation). The rifle was chambered in 6.5 CM. He was testing the rifle with factory ammo in that session. The rifle was guaranteed to shoot 3/8 MOA with factory ammo. He was concerned because his groups were a bit bigger than that, about 1/2 MOA. He was considering sending the rifle back because he could not get it to perform to the stated standard. As has been said here, most rifles today will out perform the shooter. He didn't seem to understand that the rifle is guaranteed to shoot to that standard, not the shooter/rifle combo. I don't think they can (or will) guarantee that the rifle/shooter combination will meet the standard.

He had been shooting hand loads without satisfactory performance as well. I think that he was under the impression that all he had to do to shoot one-hole groups was get the right equipment and it was guaranteed!

 

[Intheshop]

On one of my more consistent (now) varmint rigs,it took the third set of cheap dies to get the run out down to low .001's.And this was after trying every "trick" work around I had.Being frugal and stubborn?Information costs one way or another....time,mistakes,or money up front.You pick.