Die set-up in press: reloading-101 question?

[joshb]

As I slowly move into the "really precise" reloading, I hit a snag. When setting up my sizing die(RCBS competition set) I pull the stem and bushing, measure the fired case, lube and slowly "size-measure -screw down a little-" repeat, till my shoulder is pushed back .0015. Takes a while. With a shell pressed up into the die, I hand tighten the nut, and tighten the set screw. I do a couple shells and measure- size- repeat, to make sure it's right. Put the bushing and stem back in, then I finish my lot of brass. The next time I use that die, I screw it in, hand tight, and it's off and I have to repeat the whole set up process again. Is this "just the way it's done", or am I doing it wrong. I tried using 2 locking nuts, too hold the die better. Even thought about talking to a machine shop about making me a big locking nut with 2-3 set screws. Am I chasing my tail?

 

[artbosco]

As I slowly move into the "really precise" reloading, I hit a snag. When setting up my sizing die(RCBS competition set) I pull the stem and bushing, measure the fired case, lube and slowly "size-measure -screw down a little-" repeat, till my shoulder is pushed back .0015. Takes a while. With a shell pressed up into the die, I hand tighten the nut, and tighten the set screw. I do a couple shells and measure- size- repeat, to make sure it's right. Put the bushing and stem back in, then I finish my lot of brass. The next time I use that die, I screw it in, hand tight, and it's off and I have to repeat the whole set up process again. Is this "just the way it's done", or am I doing it wrong. I tried using 2 locking nuts, too hold the die better. Even thought about talking to a machine shop about making me a big locking nut with 2-3 set screws. Am I chasing my tail?

You're not chasing your tail. You're dealing with the properties of brass which are not always consistent from piece to piece.

Although the reference I am going to present here is about annealing, Mr. Light sheds a lot of good information about its properties: http://www.kenlightmfg.com/cartridgecaseannealer.htm Albeit lengthy, it's an excellent read.

Reloading is anything but dull.

 

[CatShooter]

"Even thought about talking to a machine shop about making me a big locking nut with 2-3 set screws. Am I chasing my tail?"

Yes...

You are being OCD about a material that is not precise to work with, and you're expecting more than you can get.

Set your die, and leave it.

Use Redding Competition shell holders to make adjustments (they are G-R-E-A-T). You cannot adjust anything in handloading, that will give you 0.0005" control over shoulder position - nor is it needed

 

[LawrenceHanson]

Die Shims make the process easier…no need to adjust the locking nut.
http://www.benchrite.com/cscart/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=29818

 

[Syncrowave]

Each time a case gets sized and fired (without annealing), the harder and springier it gets due to work-hardening. There are also variations even in new brass in how hard and springy it is. The "springier" a piece of brass is, the farther you have to push the shoulder back for it to take a permanent set.

In other words, if you took two fired cases with the exact same dimensions, and tried to push the shoulder back the same amount on both cases without adjusting the die, the harder/springier case wouldn't have its shoulder pushed back as far as the softer/more ductile case, all other things being equal.

Frustrating, ain't it? The good news is, you might not have to worry about it as much as you might be.

 

[Patch700]

Not meaning to hi jack the thread but I was wondering if anyone has had any experience using the PMA adjustable lock ring on a harrells press?

I've been humming and hawing about trying one but I notice on my press it is relieved somewhat where the die contacts the press. Would a person be OK with merely using a shim that's OD will fit inside the recess and then use the PMA ring?

 

[DJ111]

Quick Trick...
Put a o-ring under your die and turn it down so it ends up being fairly tight where your headspace needs to be. Set the lock ring, and put a mark on your press that lines up with the set screw of the die with a marker when you have found the headspace you need and you can always turn it down to that point. Take your first case each time you set it up and you can turn the die a little tighter or looser to get the head space you need. It will always change some, I anneal every time and it still has a slight change. This gives you +/- .003 of adjustment, no adjustable die kits needed.

 

[joshb]

Thanks, everybody, for the input. I'm moving forward in this effort because I have the time and interest. From what I've read, here and else where, the rewards can be very gratifying. I used to think I was finicky about my reloading until I started reading here. Now, I'm gonna step it up and see what I can really do with my stock guns and 3 working brain cells. I always was a little OCD so I figure I'll build on that. I have 3 guns I'm focusing on. A 22-250 I just got, that is promising. Sub 1/2 in. Groups from my first load work up. A Remington 5R that shoots sub 3/4 in., with my previous "less finicky" loading techniques, and a .223 Remy that also shoots well. I have batches of 100, for each gun, that are freshly annealed and weight sorted, trimmed, etc, etc. , that I'm working with at this point. I'm also close to shopping for a 6PPC used REAL bench gun. I appreciate the help.

 

[BoydAllen]

On the PMA Micro Die Adjuster, I have written a review and done a rudimentary video showing how to use it to adjust bump. Look for it in the bulletin in the next couple of weeks or so. The thing that it does that is so neat is that you can make very precise changes, without taking the die out of the press, or any danger of overshooting your mark. Picking off a half thousandth is quite easy. The other posters made some excellent points in their replies. If you want to have the same bump, die settings have to change as the brass is work hardened. One more thing, if you happen to set your die using one of the softer cases in a particular batch, you can run into problems with the harder ones. Check them all, and if you have to, pull the bushing and reset the die for the harder ones. Proper stress relief (not full) annealing makes a big difference in case to case consistency of shoulder bump.

 

[martin22250]

I don't like to use lock rings on the die. I find it hard to stay in place and hard to adjust. I use a automotive feeler Guage in between the die bottom and the shell holder. And keep notes of what shim to use. I keep adjusting in .001 Inc till I get the bump I want. I feel a light crush on the shim between the die and shell holder when setting up. I strip the bolt on my ppc rifle and go by light crush fit in my chamber. And go .001 on feeler shim less when the brass work hardens. Dustin

 

[TimP]

Patch700
The older PMA Micro Die Adjuster did require a shim (skips) when used with a Harrells press. Pat has redesigned it and now it is built up on the bottom and no longer requires a shim.

 

[BoydAllen]

The new one that I have requires shims on my Combo press, but I was able to find a couple at a local supplier for a small price. I deburred the stamping flashing, and coated the side of one that would contact the press with clear tape to protect the press's anodizing. The whole rig works really well. If you search for PMA tool on Youtube you should find a couple of videos, one is instructions from PMA the other is mine, made to demonstrate how easy it is to make adjustments. My Harrell turret does not require shims, nor would any other that does not have a recess where the die screws in the top of the press.

 

[martin22250]

Josh btw if you buy a ppc you will be hooked for ever dustin

 

[Patch700]

Thanks TimP and Boyd , I think what I may do is shoot Pat an email just to confirm regarding the use of a shim with this press.

It's a Harrells mag length single stage and as mentioned it is minimally relieved on top where the lock ring would make contact. Tim made mention that the new ones don't require a shim so perhaps there is a specific bottom portion of the adjustable lock ring made for these presses? I suppose if they just made all the bottom lock ring portion at a slightly smaller OD it'd still be compatible with a normal press and yet be able to function normally with a recessed press top like some of the Harrells.

 

[TimP]

Patch700
I am using the same Harrells press as you are. With the earlier die adjuster I had to use a .008 shim to raise the lock ring to compensate for the relieved area on the top of the press. The new one has been modified and if I remember correctly Pat said it would raise the die .015 again to compensate for the relieved area. It worked for me on my mag length press.

 

[Patch700]

Thanks Tim , appreciate it.

 

[oldschool1944]

I don't like to use lock rings on the die. I find it hard to stay in place and hard to adjust. I use a automotive feeler Guage in between the die bottom and the shell holder. And keep notes of what shim to use. I keep adjusting in .001 Inc till I get the bump I want. I feel a light crush on the shim between the die and shell holder when setting up. I strip the bolt on my ppc rifle and go by light crush fit in my chamber. And go .001 on feeler shim less when the brass work hardens. Dustin

 

[oldschool1944]

Dustin, I agree with your setup 100%. If you use a "set" lock ring, you are defeating the Reloading 101 reasoning in die setup. Threaded dies require "centering" the die directly IN LINE with the ram/shell holder (concentricity). To accomplish this, you must nudge the die upward (with the ram) to center it in the necessarily "sloppy threads" into the concentric position. Using a feeler gauge lets you adjust the head space to your rifle's chamber, almost irrespective of the condition of the brass. No need to measure, do it by "feel" in the rifle's chamber. As mentioned above, Redding Shell Holders are G-R-E-A-T, but us "poor boys" have to adapt; albeit a third hand would certainly simplify matters!

 

[martin22250]

Old school my way really isn't no different than using the redding shell holders like you mention or locking the die lock ring and using skip Otto style die shims. I just never bought either one. Like they say their is more than one way to skin a cat. I do it my way mainly cause I switch barrels a lot and one of my old practice ppc barrels head spaces about 1 thou different and I use the same harrels #3 die.

 

[oldschool1944]

I think I'm way out of my league here. Please excuse my ignorance, but, I really don't know what "skip Otto style die shims" are, nor "harrels #3 die". The world just passed me by quite a few years back. (A couple of decades really.)
A little background: I shoot a Sako 222 Rem HB L461 Vixon (consistently @ 1/4 MOA), a Ruger #1-B 243 Win @ 3/8 MOA, a Ruger M77 25-06 Rem @ sub 1/2 MOA, a 1908 Mauser 7x57 (Sporterized) @ 5/8 MOA, and more recently, an RIA '03 Springfield (1918) w/ original sight @ 2+ MOA. As you can see, my most recent rifle was manufactured at least 30 years ago.
My only intent here was to educate on the basic principles of reloading. Re: Do everything you can do to point that bullet down the exit hole as concentrically as you can by whatever means you have available.
BTW (How's that for 21st century lingo?) what is OCD?