dented shoulders

[ericbc7]

I just loaded up 40 rounds of .223 in new Winchester brass. I used lee collet die to make neck tension, but found out that this brass would not chamber. in fact all three rounds i tried to chamber dented the shoulder of the cases. I tried to size em down with a redding body die but even with hard contact with shell holder the shells still dent when i try to chamber them.
what is going on?

must i pull all 40 rounds and run em through the forster fl sizing die?

I used a forster co-ax press and shell holder.
here is my picture

they all dented when i tried to chamber them. I ran a couple through a redding body die with hard contact with the shell holder on my forster coax
what the hec is going on?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

New brass should be FL sized before use then FL sized everytime thereafter. Did you not check them in your chamber before loading? Most need a little shoulder bump esp in a custom or chamber on the min spec side

 

[JohnKielly]

Are you OK with the way the collet die was adjusted, John Valentine has explained it this way:

Using The Lee Collet Die.

I started using Lee collet dies when they first came on the market and have found that they are very good for the purposes for which they were designed .
I have found that there is a lack of understanding of how to use the die properly and as a result people fail to see the advantages that the die can deliver over standard neck sizing dies.
This is not the fault of the product , it is just a lack of understanding of how the die works and what it will feel like when you operate the press correctly.
Standard dies use a neck expanding ball on the decapping rod and size by extruding the neck through a hole and then drag the expander ball back through the inside neck.
The collet die achieves neck sizing by using a split collet to squeeze the outside of the case neck onto a central mandrel which has the decapping pin in it’s base .
One advantage is that there is no stretching or drawing action on the brass.
The inside neck diameter is controlled by the diameter of the mandrel and to some extent by the amount of adjustment of the die and the pressure applied to the press .
This results in less misalignment than can occur in standard dies because of any uneven neck wall thickness in the cases .
Cases will last longer in the neck area and require less trimming. If cases have very uneven neck wall thickness then this can cause problems for the collet die they definitely work smoother and more accurately with neck turned cases but it is not essential.
When you first receive the die unscrew the top cap and pull it apart check that everything is there also that the splits in the collet have nothing stuck in them then inspect the tapered surface on the top end of the collet and the internal taper of the insert to make sure there are no metal burs that might cause it to jamb.
Next get some good quality high pressure grease and put a smear onto the tapered surface of the collet .
Put it back together and screw it into the press just a few threads for now . The best type of press for this die is a press of moderate compound leverage that travels over centre .
Over centre means that when the ram reaches its full travel up it will stop and come back down a tiny amount even though the movement on the handle is continued through to the stop .
eg. is an RCBS Rockchucker.
This arrangement gives the best feel for a collet die sizing operation.
Place the shell holder in the ram and bring the ram up to full height then screw the die down until the collet skirt just touches on the shell holder , then lower the ram .
Take a case to be sized that has a clean neck inside and out and the mouth chamfered and place it in the shell holder.
Raise the ram gently feeling for resistance if none , lower the ram.
Screw the die down a bit at a time .
If you get lock up ( ram stops before going over centre) before the correct position is found then back it off and make sure the collet is loose and not jammed up in the die before continuing then raise the ram feeling for any resistance , keep repeating this until you feel the press handle resist against the case neck just at the top of the stroke as the press goes over centre and the handle kinder locks in place .
This takes much less force than a standard die and most people don’t believe any sizing has taken place .
Take the case out and try a projectile of the correct caliber to see how much sizing has taken place.
If it’s still too loose adjust the die down one eighth of a turn lock it finger tight only and try again .
Once the die is near the correct sizing position it takes very little movement of the die to achieve changes in neck seating tension .
This is where most people come undone , they move the die up and down too much and it either locks up or doesn’t size at all .
It will still size a case locking it up but you have no control over how much pressure is applied and some people lean on the press handle to the point of damaging the die. A press like the RCBS Rockchucker , that goes over centre each time gives you a definite stopping point for the ram and the pressure that you apply .
There is a small sweet spot for correct collet die adjustment and you must find it , once found , how sweet it is ! Advantages : With a press that travels over centre it is possible to adjust the neck seating tension within a very limited zone. No lubricant is normally required on the case necks during sizing .

If you still cant get enough neck tension to hold the bullet properly for a particular purpose then you will have to polish down the mandrel.
Be careful poilishing the mandrel down and only do it a bit at a time as a few thou can be removed pretty quickly if you overdo it.
You can't get extra neck tension by just applying more force. The amount of adjustment around the sweet spot is very limited and almost not noticable without carrying out tests.
For example , to go from a .001 neck tension to a .002 or .003 neck tension you would be talking about polishing down the mandrel.

There are some other advantages but I will leave you the pleasure of discovering them .
One disadvantage that I have found with the collet die is that it needs good vertical alignment of the case as it enters the die or case damage may result so go slowly.
Also some cases with a very thick internal base can cause problems with the mandrel coming in contact with the internal base before the sizing stroke is finished.
If pressure is continued the mandrel can push up against the top cap and cause damage . If you are getting lock up and cant get the right sizing sweet spot, then check that the mandrel is not too long for the case you can place a washer over the case and onto the shell holder and size down on that.
It will reduce the length of neck sized and give the mandrel more clearance. If it sizes Ok after adding the washer then the mandrel could be hitting the base.
This is not a usually problem once you learn how to use them .
The harder the brass is the more spring back it will have so very hard brass will exhibit less sizing than soft brass because it will spring away from the mandrel more. If this is happening to excess then use new cases or anneal the necks.
Freshly annealed brass can drag on the mandrel a bit in certain cases because it will spring back less and result in a tighter size diameter.
I have experienced it. I always use some dry lube on the inside and outside if I get any draging effect . Normally you dont need lube.
I make up a special batch 1/3 Fine Moly powder. 1/3 Pure graphite. 1/3 Aluminiumised lock graphite. Rub your fingers around the neck and It sticks very well to the necks by just dipping it in and out and tapping it to clear the inside neck . After a few cases it coats up the mandrel .
Other dry lubricants would work also.
Use the same process for normal neck sizing also.

I noticed a definite improvement in the accuracy of my 22-250Rem. as soon as I started using a Lee collet die instead of my original standard neck die.
Readers are encouraged to utilise the benefits of responsible reloading at all times. Although the author has taken care in the writing of these articles no responsibility can be taken by the author or publisher as a result of the use of this information.
John Valentine. © 21/01/2002.

 

[ericbc7]

Hey John, thanks for the information. fact is i use the lee collet die regularly, but these were new brass. what i cannot figure out is why i cannot run them through the redding body die to make them chamber.

 

[jo191145]

Something's terribly wrong.

Does virgin unsized brass chamber in your gun? It should.
Did you try sizing one of your loaded rounds that had not yet been dented by a chambering attempt?
Is there enough neck clearence in your Redding body die to size a loaded round?
How are you measuring headspace?

 

[Ghengisahn175]

Bolt rifle or gas gun?

Several thoughts come to mind....

-You said it's virgin brass so it should fit your chamber without much prep unless instructions say to prep brass (I remember someone else saying they needed to FL size their virgin brass; can't remember reason why) . Do a chamber fit check with one that's completely fresh. Also measure the shoulders on your Virgin brass and compare
To shoulders of brass YOU FIRED out of the same rifle that you haven't sized at all.

-is there a carbon ring/debris in your chamber? Verify with your mark II eyeballs that there's no obstruction like a patch or swab, etc.

IF It's a shoulder bump issue, You need to push shoulders back a tad bit.

If It's a bolt gun and you have to force your bolt down (or it you can't even throw bolt down OR if it's s has gun and you let your bolt forward but when you try to eject round you need to beat the charging Handle, I'm sure it's sizing.

 

[FatBoy]

Any chance you have oil or solvent in the chamber? Too much case lube does the exact same thing when FL sizing. I the chamber is wet, liquid does not compress and will dent the case.

 

[BillPa]

I tried to size em down with a redding body die but even with hard contact with shell holder the shells still dent when i try to chamber them.
what is going on?

You're looking in the wrong hole so to speak! ;D

If the shoulders aren't dented going in the the chamber it sure isn't the die(s) setup. The best I can tell from your pic they're caused by something on the shoulder portion of the chamber. They're too irregular for hydraulic dents and only at one spot. It time to take a gander at and or give the chamber a good cleaning.

Bill

 

[LHSmith]

In order to cause dents like that , you must have tried hammering the bolt closed....even if they were annealed to the dead soft state. First time one case does not chamber....STOP.....investigate.... measure....don't keep trying to chamber more cases.....remember the definition of insanity?

 

[fguffey]

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dented shoulders

« on: Today at 12:40 AM »




Quote



I just loaded up 40 rounds of .223 in new Winchester brass. I used lee collet die to make neck tension, but found out that this brass would not chamber. in fact all three rounds i tried to chamber dented the shoulder of the cases. I tried to size em down with a redding body die but even with hard contact with shell holder the shells still dent when i try to chamber them.
what is going on?

must i pull all 40 rounds and run em through the forster fl sizing die?

I used a forster co-ax press and shell holder.
here is my picture

I have never had this problem, I have never finished loading ammo only to find it will not chamber after loading. I do not use Lee collet dies, I would suggest you skip the neck tension adjustment.

F. Guffey

 

[expiper]

OP,,,as stated ,,,Try a new out of the box case in your chamber ,,,that should fit,,,if not there is problems with the chamber,,,,sometimes a body die will squeeze the body of the ctg case enuff to make it longer,,,use a full length die and the problem should be solved,,,Roger

 

[Jason Boersma]

Make sure your cases are trimmed to the right length also. It might be pushing the neck back into the body when you chamber.

 

[CJ6]

Inspect and clean the chamber.

 

[M-61]

"in fact all three rounds i tried to chamber dented the shoulder of the cases. I tried to size em down with a redding body die but even with hard contact with shell holder the shells still dent when i try to chamber them."

Bolt rifle? Never got them to chamber and therefore the 'dent' was caused while TRYING to chamber?
After firing you saw the 'dent'?
As asked above Did you take a NEW unfired piece of brass and try to chamber it? Not a cartridge just the brass!

 

[fguffey]

I tried to size em down with a redding body die but even with hard contact with shell holder the shells still dent when i try to chamber them.
what is going on?[/quote]

You listed all the good tools, my opinion it is about the tools you did not list. I would suggest you start with a comparator. All I need is a round hole I can use for a datum. The Wilson case gage is a datum based tool, then there are chamber gages, I make chamber gages out of shot out barrels.

Beyond that there is the tapper.

F. Guffey

 

[gotcha]

Head space on new brass can vary lot to lot and between Mfg.'s....... check new brass in chamber then re-chamber after each step of your reloading process. You'll soon identify the source of your problem. Otherwise much of the above is SWAG. There are no short cuts in precision reloading. I've learned this lesson by making the same mistakes.

 

[fguffey]

I tried to size em down with a redding body die but even with hard contact with shell holder the shells still dent when i try to chamber them.
what is going on?

You listed all the good tools, my opinion it is about the tools you did not list. I would suggest you start with a comparator. All I need is a round hole I can use for a datum. The Wilson case gage is a datum based tool, then there are chamber gages, I make chamber gages out of shot out barrels.

Beyond that there is the tapper.

F. Guffey

 

['Freak]

Assuming the bolt gets closed, where’s that going put the bullet’s ogive relative to contact with the lands?

 

[fguffey]

Assuming the bolt gets closed, where’s that going put the bullet’s ogive relative to contact with the lands?

Seems he would have worked that out before he started reloading for his chamber.

F. Guffey

 

[Juma]

You have oil or some solvent clogged up in your chamber. Simple. It is likely in some recess.The LCD is a great piece of kit. People slag them off because they don't know how to use them properly. After you have fired this brass anneal them and your reloading will go smooth as butter.