Defiance Elite vs Bat TR

[spitfire_er]

I'm getting down to my final two picks for a new PRS rig. Not having used ether of these, I have done my research, and I will end up with one or the other.

BAT TR (without a trigger hanger)
Pros
- Its a BAT
-i like the bolt shroud attachment system
Cons
-...........push feed (im a CRF guy)

Defiance Elite
Pros
-cone bolt
-CRF
-i like the idea of the slide extractor
Cons
-dont like the threaded bolt shroud as much

I know there really isn't much difference between the two for me other than what I mentioned, but is there anyone out there who has real world experience with the two and which one you would choose and why. Cost for both of them will end up about the same after the defiance is DLC coated, unless they charge less for that now than a couple years ago.

 

[johara1]

How will the one work with a cone BF. on a repeater? Now I see it is set up like a old Mod 70 Win. but it has a sliding extractor. Nice set up..... jim

 

[Matt_3479]

I think I’m against the norm but I was actually slightly disappointed in my deviant! I have a second one on the way to see if my first is a against the norm. We should see by next Thursday. I’ve not shot bat but felt a few and they were super nice!! To me I’d lean towards the bat. Hoping this second deviant restores some positivity for me.

my personal favourite is by far the terminus Zeus. Feel like it’s a lot nicer then my deviant

 

[kthomas]

Defiance doesn't do DLC anymore.

If you want DLC and CRF, the ARC Mausingfield is an excellent option. I use a Mausingfield for my PRS rifle, and the action is excellent. I feel like it's a pretty underrated and underrepresented action in PRS.

 

[spitfire_er]

I think I’m against the norm but I was actually slightly disappointed in my deviant! I have a second one on the way to see if my first is a against the norm. We should see by next Thursday. I’ve not shot bat but felt a few and they were super nice!! To me I’d lean towards the bat. Hoping this second deviant restores some positivity for me.

my personal favourite is by far the terminus Zeus. Feel like it’s a lot nicer then my deviant

I was looking hard at the Terminus actions, but I don't want a 3 lug for this application.

Defiance doesn't do DLC anymore.

If you want DLC and CRF, the ARC Mausingfield is an excellent option. I use a Mausingfield for my PRS rifle, and the action is excellent. I feel like it's a pretty underrated and underrepresented action in PRS.

Good to know. I looked at the Mausingfields a while back, some interesting features. Ill have to have another look.

 

[Sniper338]

The Bat would be much better than defiance. I have two defiance, and felt several Bats. Bat quality is on another level vs defiance.

I'll go as far as saying if I didnt have several barrels spun up for my defiance actions, I'd get rid of them and go to Bat or Borden.

 

[Scooby-93]

Defiance doesn't do DLC anymore.

If you want DLC and CRF, the ARC Mausingfield is an excellent option. I use a Mausingfield for my PRS rifle, and the action is excellent. I feel like it's a pretty underrated and underrepresented action in PRS.

Why don’t defiance offer DLC anymore?

 

[Tony1320]

I think I’m against the norm but I was actually slightly disappointed in my deviant! I have a second one on the way to see if my first is a against the norm. We should see by next Thursday. I’ve not shot bat but felt a few and they were super nice!! To me I’d lean towards the bat. Hoping this second deviant restores some positivity for me.

my personal favourite is by far the terminus Zeus. Feel like it’s a lot nicer then my deviant

Can you elaborate on why you felt slightly disappointed with your Defiance? I'm curious

 

[gilmillan1]

I have a defiance, and I have not had any problems with it. I have shot several prs matches and it has not disappointed me. It feeds and cycles just fine. Gun is very accurate. HOWEVER, I have not tried the Bat in question here. So far I can't complain about the defiance deviant.

 

[spitfire_er]

Why don’t defiance offer DLC anymore?

Just got an email back from Defiance. They still offer DLC, but it adds 2-4 weeks and as of today $125 extra. Sounds like they have a second party do the DLC coating.

 

[Matt_3479]

Can you elaborate on why you felt slightly disappointed with your Defiance? I'm curious

well you read so much stuff about how great, how smooth, light lift, flawless defiance actions are. Pricing in Canada is extremely different as well. I started off with a stiller tac 30, then a kelbly atlas tac and paid 1250-1400 for these actions. I then purchased the terminus Zeus and defiance deviant and by the time it was shipped to house I paid roughly 2300 dollars for each action. So we are talking roughly a 1000 dollar difference from the “low end-high end”.

The terminus being 60 degree i anticipated a heavier lift. Once it wore in its really not overtly noticeable. The finish is great, it’s buttery smooth and wildly fast to cycle. I’m extremely impressed with the action. Plus the quick change feature works very well with almost no poi shift, and the threaded trigger pins is incredible and to top off a tooless firing pin assembly.

the defiance while beautiful to look at and overall a super nice action, I don’t see or feel it’s worth 1000 more then the kelbly. The fit and finish is nice, but it doesn’t carry any convenient features like the tool less firing pin assembly, or prefits on a deviant. The action isn’t as smooth as my kelbly or my Zeus but is nicer then the stiller. I expected it to be the smoothest of the bunch but it’s not where close. The bolt lift is less then the zeus I’d say but not by much, and about par with the stiller maybe but no where near as light as the kelbly.

i don’t know if it was just the fact I was expecting... who knows actually. I just know that compared to my terminus or my kelbly atlas I probably wouldn’t be recommending them over the other two. I stumbled across a good trade which is built on a defiance deviant again, and I’m excited to see if maybe my current one (long action Lapua bolt face) is an Anomaly amongst defiance’s or if my expectations are higher then they should.

i wish I could get some hands on experiences with the tenacity and origin as in the US they are priced similar or less then the kelbly atlas tac. I love to see how these feel and preform. In Canada the kelbly is still the cheapest action I know of as everything’s gone up. I purchased my stiller 7 year ago if I’m remembering correctly and they are now closer to 1600-1700 i believe where the kelbly is still 1299.

Can you elaborate on why you felt slightly disappointed with your Defiance? I'm curi

 

[kthomas]

Just got an email back from Defiance. They still offer DLC, but it adds 2-4 weeks and as of today $125 extra. Sounds like they have a second party do the DLC coating.

Interesting. At one point in the pretty recent past they stopped DLC finishes, for a reason I can't remember. May have been a supply chain issue.

Thanks for checking in on that, I'm happy to hear that they are resuming that service.

I have a DLC'ed Defiance Deviant, and it's certainly a nice action.

 

[kthomas]

well you read so much stuff about how great, how smooth, light lift, flawless defiance actions are. Pricing in Canada is extremely different as well. I started off with a stiller tac 30, then a kelbly atlas tac and paid 1250-1400 for these actions. I then purchased the terminus Zeus and defiance deviant and by the time it was shipped to house I paid roughly 2300 dollars for each action. So we are talking roughly a 1000 dollar difference from the “low end-high end”.

The terminus being 60 degree i anticipated a heavier lift. Once it wore in its really not overtly noticeable. The finish is great, it’s buttery smooth and wildly fast to cycle. I’m extremely impressed with the action. Plus the quick change feature works very well with almost no poi shift, and the threaded trigger pins is incredible and to top off a tooless firing pin assembly.

the defiance while beautiful to look at and overall a super nice action, I don’t see or feel it’s worth 1000 more then the kelbly. The fit and finish is nice, but it doesn’t carry any convenient features like the tool less firing pin assembly, or prefits on a deviant. The action isn’t as smooth as my kelbly or my Zeus but is nicer then the stiller. I expected it to be the smoothest of the bunch but it’s not where close. The bolt lift is less then the zeus I’d say but not by much, and about par with the stiller maybe but no where near as light as the kelbly.

i don’t know if it was just the fact I was expecting... who knows actually. I just know that compared to my terminus or my kelbly atlas I probably wouldn’t be recommending them over the other two. I stumbled across a good trade which is built on a defiance deviant again, and I’m excited to see if maybe my current one (long action Lapua bolt face) is an Anomaly amongst defiance’s or if my expectations are higher then they should.

i wish I could get some hands on experiences with the tenacity and origin as in the US they are priced similar or less then the kelbly atlas tac. I love to see how these feel and preform. In Canada the kelbly is still the cheapest action I know of as everything’s gone up. I purchased my stiller 7 year ago if I’m remembering correctly and they are now closer to 1600-1700 i believe where the kelbly is still 1299.

No doubt the Kelbly is the best bargain in Canada for actions.

Defiance's are nice, but they do have a bit tighter clearances then other actions designed for PRS. Defiance will build an action any way you spec it, but that requires you to know what to ask for. Cerakote makes things even worse with those tight clearances as well, so you have to be careful with that.

From the matches I've been too, Defiance's seem to have the most troubles when the conditions get really dusty and windy. A stock Defiance can bind up if a certain amount of debris gets in it. I've seen some very experienced Defiance sponsored PRS shooters have to hammer the bolt open with their fists on stages, because of the debris. My first PRS gun was a GAP Crusader with Defiance Rebel action, and that thing was a nightmare to operate in adverse conditions. However, that was a fairly old action, and being cerakoted didn't help matters at all.

My other Defiance is a newer Deviant, with polished raceways and DLC. It's a great action, but it's on my .300NM rifle, which doesn't see the extent of adverse conditions that my PRS rifle does.

There's strengths and weaknesses for any action out there, you just have to balance those out with the features you want. Lots of great actions these days.

 

[Matt_3479]

No doubt the Kelbly is the best bargain in Canada for actions.

Defiance's are nice, but they do have a bit tighter clearances then other actions designed for PRS. Defiance will build an action any way you spec it, but that requires you to know what to ask for. Cerakote makes things even worse with those tight clearances as well, so you have to be careful with that.

From the matches I've been too, Defiance's seem to have the most troubles when the conditions get really dusty and windy. A stock Defiance can bind up if a certain amount of debris gets in it. I've seen some very experienced Defiance sponsored PRS shooters have to hammer the bolt open with their fists on stages, because of the debris. My first PRS gun was a GAP Crusader with Defiance Rebel action, and that thing was a nightmare to operate in adverse conditions. However, that was a fairly old action, and being cerakoted didn't help matters at all.

My other Defiance is a newer Deviant, with polished raceways and DLC. It's a great action, but it's on my .300NM rifle, which doesn't see the extent of adverse conditions that my PRS rifle does.

There's strengths and weaknesses for any action out there, you just have to balance those out with the features you want. Lots of great actions these days.

In no way do I feel like the defiance isn’t a nice action. And have read and heard all the issues and bonus of the defiance’s. They are an incredible looking action. Overall I won’t sell it, but I doubt I’ll buy another is all I’m saying. The second one showed up tn. A mag bolt face, long action dlc’d deviant and it feels good. But still just not my favourite. Beautiful actions though.

I finally got my hands on an impact 737 and boy that’s a freaking nice feeling action! I’m debating on the next one and I’m trying to decide between trying the bighorn tl3/sr3 or 737. I’ve wanted to try a tl3 for some time now.

 

[kthomas]

In no way do I feel like the defiance isn’t a nice action. And have read and heard all the issues and bonus of the defiance’s. They are an incredible looking action. Overall I won’t sell it, but I doubt I’ll buy another is all I’m saying. The second one showed up tn. A mag bolt face, long action dlc’d deviant and it feels good. But still just not my favourite. Beautiful actions though.

I finally got my hands on an impact 737 and boy that’s a freaking nice feeling action! I’m debating on the next one and I’m trying to decide between trying the bighorn tl3/sr3 or 737. I’ve wanted to try a tl3 for some time now.

That's fair. With all the great actions out there these days, I don't think a Defiance would be my first choice for a PRS type rig either. There's a few actions out there that are more tolerant of debris, and ultimately I went with a Mausingfield because of reliability issues I had with my Defiance at PRS matches.

Zermatt makes great products and they take care of their customers. Owned a TL3 for a hot minute, it was actually for the wife's rifle, but she just didn't like how the action feels, particularly how "sloppy" it felt with the bolt all the way to the rear, which to my understanding is a characteristic of the floating bolt head.

The "slop" of the TL3 seems to be people's biggest critique of that action, but if that doesn't bother you, then the TL3 is a great action with great features. I really wanted my wife to like it, but it just wasn't meant to be.

If you do get a TL3, Zermatt offers a service to time the trigger for you, I believe it's free if you buy the action through them (or a very minimal charge). If you are planning on using a BnA tacsport trigger, that's not really a big deal as you can time/adjust the sear engagement yourself, but if using a TT trigger, it may really benefit from trigger timing. When I put a TT trigger in that TL3, it had excessive sear engagement, resulting in really heavy bolt lift and close. The TL3 is supposed to have a really light bolt lift and close if the interface between the trigger and action is optimized, so keep that in mind.

 

[kthomas]

If you do want to go push feed (737), you may want to also consider a Lone Peak Fuzion. Everyone that I know that's owned both (737 and LP Fuzion), seem to prefer the Fuzion.

Both great actions though.

 

[group therapy]

well you read so much stuff about how great, how smooth, light lift, flawless defiance actions are. Pricing in Canada is extremely different as well. I started off with a stiller tac 30, then a kelbly atlas tac and paid 1250-1400 for these actions. I then purchased the terminus Zeus and defiance deviant and by the time it was shipped to house I paid roughly 2300 dollars for each action. So we are talking roughly a 1000 dollar difference from the “low end-high end”.

The terminus being 60 degree i anticipated a heavier lift. Once it wore in its really not overtly noticeable. The finish is great, it’s buttery smooth and wildly fast to cycle. I’m extremely impressed with the action. Plus the quick change feature works very well with almost no poi shift, and the threaded trigger pins is incredible and to top off a tooless firing pin assembly.

the defiance while beautiful to look at and overall a super nice action, I don’t see or feel it’s worth 1000 more then the kelbly. The fit and finish is nice, but it doesn’t carry any convenient features like the tool less firing pin assembly, or prefits on a deviant. The action isn’t as smooth as my kelbly or my Zeus but is nicer then the stiller. I expected it to be the smoothest of the bunch but it’s not where close. The bolt lift is less then the zeus I’d say but not by much, and about par with the stiller maybe but no where near as light as the kelbly.

i don’t know if it was just the fact I was expecting... who knows actually. I just know that compared to my terminus or my kelbly atlas I probably wouldn’t be recommending them over the other two. I stumbled across a good trade which is built on a defiance deviant again, and I’m excited to see if maybe my current one (long action Lapua bolt face) is an Anomaly amongst defiance’s or if my expectations are higher then they should.

i wish I could get some hands on experiences with the tenacity and origin as in the US they are priced similar or less then the kelbly atlas tac. I love to see how these feel and preform. In Canada the kelbly is still the cheapest action I know of as everything’s gone up. I purchased my stiller 7 year ago if I’m remembering correctly and they are now closer to 1600-1700 i believe where the kelbly is still 1299.

if you havent yet, you should try some of my oil..... it'll slick the action right up!!!! and for a LOT LESS than the $$$ you have been talking about.

 

[Matt_3479]

That's fair. With all the great actions out there these days, I don't think a Defiance would be my first choice for a PRS type rig either. There's a few actions out there that are more tolerant of debris, and ultimately I went with a Mausingfield because of reliability issues I had with my Defiance at PRS matches.

Zermatt makes great products and they take care of their customers. Owned a TL3 for a hot minute, it was actually for the wife's rifle, but she just didn't like how the action feels, particularly how "sloppy" it felt with the bolt all the way to the rear, which to my understanding is a characteristic of the floating bolt head.

The "slop" of the TL3 seems to be people's biggest critique of that action, but if that doesn't bother you, then the TL3 is a great action with great features. I really wanted my wife to like it, but it just wasn't meant to be.

If you do get a TL3, Zermatt offers a service to time the trigger for you, I believe it's free if you buy the action through them (or a very minimal charge). If you are planning on using a BnA tacsport trigger, that's not really a big deal as you can time/adjust the sear engagement yourself, but if using a TT trigger, it may really benefit from trigger timing. When I put a TT trigger in that TL3, it had excessive sear engagement, resulting in really heavy bolt lift and close. The TL3 is supposed to have a really light bolt lift and close if the interface between the trigger and action is optimized, so keep that in mind.

i put a list together of all the main actions I want to try. You read so many things about the different actions and so many different opinions. I figured the only way to tell is by buying them yourself and giving them a go. I have a 25 creed in the Zeus, 260 rem in a stiller, 6 creed in the kelbly and a 300 Norma in the defiance.

everyone has a different opinion, different likings, and even smiths have there preferences. I’m sure 90% or greater percentage of actions are fantastic in there own way! With the incredible following of defiance and extremely high reputation and yet MY opinion (caps on the “my” so everyone knows it’s only an opinion lol) is that it’s a beautiful action but I was slightly disappointed. I am extremely glad I own one though and most likely will never sell it. Nothing worse then wondering what if, or maybe I should of gotten this instead.

the tl3 I’ve heard has some slop. I’ve only handled 1 and it was quick! But from initial impressions, it was nice. The features of it are awesome. Wouldn’t mind trying the controlled round feed, love mechanical ejectors, like the idea of the replaceable bolt heads and prefits. That said, there’s still a decent amount of actions on the list (bighorn tl3, bat, lone peak, ks arms, ultimatum maybe and impact I believe are my top choices for the future action’s).

its funny you mentioned the lone peak. I was just informed (while trying to purchase an action) that lone peak was “over rated, over inflated, copy of a defiance that isn’t as well built, or smooth, or finished” yet I read tremendous things about lone peak.

now time to narrow down the calibers for all these actions lol. Next couple builds will be a long action fast twist 270. Wsm cause why not and a 20 tac to replace my current 20 tac on a Remington

 

[Tony1320]

i put a list together of all the main actions I want to try. You read so many things about the different actions and so many different opinions. I figured the only way to tell is by buying them yourself and giving them a go. I have a 25 creed in the Zeus, 260 rem in a stiller, 6 creed in the kelbly and a 300 Norma in the defiance.

everyone has a different opinion, different likings, and even smiths have there preferences. I’m sure 90% or greater percentage of actions are fantastic in there own way! With the incredible following of defiance and extremely high reputation and yet MY opinion (caps on the “my” so everyone knows it’s only an opinion lol) is that it’s a beautiful action but I was slightly disappointed. I am extremely glad I own one though and most likely will never sell it. Nothing worse then wondering what if, or maybe I should of gotten this instead.

the tl3 I’ve heard has some slop. I’ve only handled 1 and it was quick! But from initial impressions, it was nice. The features of it are awesome. Wouldn’t mind trying the controlled round feed, love mechanical ejectors, like the idea of the replaceable bolt heads and prefits. That said, there’s still a decent amount of actions on the list (bighorn tl3, bat, lone peak, ks arms, ultimatum maybe and impact I believe are my top choices for the future action’s).

its funny you mentioned the lo ne peak. I was just informed (while trying to purchase an action) that lone peak was “over rated, over inflated, copy of a defiance that isn’t as well built, or smooth, or finished” yet I read tremendous things about lone peak.

now time to narrow down the calibers for all these actions lol. Next couple builds will be a long action fast twist 270. Wsm cause why not and a 20 tac to replace my current 20 tac on a Remington

Is it possible their opinion is biased because they sell Defiance?

If you haven't tried a Borden you should add it to the list. They are the nicest actions I've tried. Butter smooth and Jim will time the action for you. I use 2 for my f-class rifles.

 

[Tony1320]

well you read so much stuff about how great, how smooth, light lift, flawless defiance actions are. Pricing in Canada is extremely different as well. I started off with a stiller tac 30, then a kelbly atlas tac and paid 1250-1400 for these actions. I then purchased the terminus Zeus and defiance deviant and by the time it was shipped to house I paid roughly 2300 dollars for each action. So we are talking roughly a 1000 dollar difference from the “low end-high end”.

The terminus being 60 degree i anticipated a heavier lift. Once it wore in its really not overtly noticeable. The finish is great, it’s buttery smooth and wildly fast to cycle. I’m extremely impressed with the action. Plus the quick change feature works very well with almost no poi shift, and the threaded trigger pins is incredible and to top off a tooless firing pin assembly.

the defiance while beautiful to look at and overall a super nice action, I don’t see or feel it’s worth 1000 more then the kelbly. The fit and finish is nice, but it doesn’t carry any convenient features like the tool less firing pin assembly, or prefits on a deviant. The action isn’t as smooth as my kelbly or my Zeus but is nicer then the stiller. I expected it to be the smoothest of the bunch but it’s not where close. The bolt lift is less then the zeus I’d say but not by much, and about par with the stiller maybe but no where near as light as the kelbly.

i don’t know if it was just the fact I was expecting... who knows actually. I just know that compared to my terminus or my kelbly atlas I probably wouldn’t be recommending them over the other two. I stumbled across a good trade which is built on a defiance deviant again, and I’m excited to see if maybe my current one (long action Lapua bolt face) is an Anomaly amongst defiance’s or if my expectations are higher then they should.

i wish I could get some hands on experiences with the tenacity and origin as in the US they are priced similar or less then the kelbly atlas tac. I love to see how these feel and preform. In Canada the kelbly is still the cheapest action I know of as everything’s gone up. I purchased my stiller 7 year ago if I’m remembering correctly and they are now closer to 1600-1700 i believe where the kelbly is still 1299.

It's definitely hard to beat the Kelbly Atlas for value in Canada

Seems to me $2300 is expensive I remember the Defiance being around $1899 for a polished Deviant

I have an Impact but I've always had the itch to try a Defiance I'll probably try one next for the same reasons you read about.

I recommend reaching out to Harley at Insite Arms for your next build. They carry a lot of stuff in stock and build hammers. Sounds like they are cheaper than what your paying too