D.reevers 10 twist article- anyone have the link
- Thread starter Ogre6br
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Ogre we "de-linked" that article. While the basic information was valid, there was some question about the performance of the 95gr Berger in certain conditions. Some guys ARE getting good results with the Bergers in 1:10, but you can't count on it, so we recommend a 1:9" or faster.
Right now two ideal 1:10" twist bullet choices are the BIB 95 FB and the Lapua 90gr Boattail. If you want to shoot something heavier, go to an 8-twist.
Right now two ideal 1:10" twist bullet choices are the BIB 95 FB and the Lapua 90gr Boattail. If you want to shoot something heavier, go to an 8-twist.
Ok
Cool- I have just picked up a 1:10 hardly used 27inch Varmint barrel and was looking for the article to give me some loads, projectiles etc.
I'm planning on using between 65-85 grain as it's 99% going to be a hunting rifle.
Want to be able to pre-load with some LR projectiles and try out at informal field rifle or Met silloutte or maybe even a fly shoot like aussie bob wrote up about.
Just looking for ideas.
Once the chamber is cut off and it re-chambered to .272 65 FB 6 BR I'll prolly have 24.5-25 inch barrel.
thanks
later
p
Cool- I have just picked up a 1:10 hardly used 27inch Varmint barrel and was looking for the article to give me some loads, projectiles etc.
I'm planning on using between 65-85 grain as it's 99% going to be a hunting rifle.
Want to be able to pre-load with some LR projectiles and try out at informal field rifle or Met silloutte or maybe even a fly shoot like aussie bob wrote up about.
Just looking for ideas.
Once the chamber is cut off and it re-chambered to .272 65 FB 6 BR I'll prolly have 24.5-25 inch barrel.
thanks
later
p
P.
The "Questions" arose from the fact that unless you actually measure your twist you won't know if you have a true ten twist, or a 9.7 or 10.3 or whatever regardless of what the barrel manufacturer claims. Also a well known ballistic guru publicly denounced my results as impossible. All I can say is that I never saw him there at the matches I shot with this barrel but those WHO WERE THERE can attest to the results.
I stand by my results, and by the article I wrote. I have enough witnesses in actual competitions to vouch for the results with the 95 VLD's.
If you are looking for loads I found that the Berger 90 grain BT shot phenomenal groups especially at 200 meters. Groups that would rival a PPC. Again with eye witness accounts. That was on top of 30.3 grains of Varget with a BR4.,I have since switched to CCI 450's to lower the extreme spread on a tip from Lynn Dragoman) This load was mild in my rifle, but use the regular cautions. At 500 meters this load did not shoot as well as the Berger 95 VLD's in my particular barrel that's why I switched to the 95's at that distance. Be forewarned that the 95 VLD's have a very short bearing surface so a freebore of .045-.060 is mandatory to stick the bullet in the rifling. In my ten twist the 95's shot superbly, a friends ten twist the same, another friends ten twist would not shoot them however, and all three barrels were identical Shilen six groove throated .060. Go figure.
All I can say is try them they may or may not shoot for you.
As the moderator mentioned the 95 BIB flat base is worth a try, it has a longer bearing surface so a longer freebore is better suited for that particular bullet. I venture a guess of at least an .080 otherwise the base may be below the neck shoulder junction. Not good for a bullet with a .2436 pressure ring. It will expand the neck going in but when it passes the neck shoulder junction your left with no grip on the bullet where it measures a true .243.
I was shooting this bullet,BIB 95) in an eight twist Shilen,with good results, but since have switched to a Kreiger eight twist, four groove, .237 bore and it dosen't like the BIB. Again each barrel is different, you just have to find what your particular barrel likes and then run with it.
Hope this helps.
Danny Reever
The "Questions" arose from the fact that unless you actually measure your twist you won't know if you have a true ten twist, or a 9.7 or 10.3 or whatever regardless of what the barrel manufacturer claims. Also a well known ballistic guru publicly denounced my results as impossible. All I can say is that I never saw him there at the matches I shot with this barrel but those WHO WERE THERE can attest to the results.
I stand by my results, and by the article I wrote. I have enough witnesses in actual competitions to vouch for the results with the 95 VLD's.
If you are looking for loads I found that the Berger 90 grain BT shot phenomenal groups especially at 200 meters. Groups that would rival a PPC. Again with eye witness accounts. That was on top of 30.3 grains of Varget with a BR4.,I have since switched to CCI 450's to lower the extreme spread on a tip from Lynn Dragoman) This load was mild in my rifle, but use the regular cautions. At 500 meters this load did not shoot as well as the Berger 95 VLD's in my particular barrel that's why I switched to the 95's at that distance. Be forewarned that the 95 VLD's have a very short bearing surface so a freebore of .045-.060 is mandatory to stick the bullet in the rifling. In my ten twist the 95's shot superbly, a friends ten twist the same, another friends ten twist would not shoot them however, and all three barrels were identical Shilen six groove throated .060. Go figure.
All I can say is try them they may or may not shoot for you.
As the moderator mentioned the 95 BIB flat base is worth a try, it has a longer bearing surface so a longer freebore is better suited for that particular bullet. I venture a guess of at least an .080 otherwise the base may be below the neck shoulder junction. Not good for a bullet with a .2436 pressure ring. It will expand the neck going in but when it passes the neck shoulder junction your left with no grip on the bullet where it measures a true .243.
I was shooting this bullet,BIB 95) in an eight twist Shilen,with good results, but since have switched to a Kreiger eight twist, four groove, .237 bore and it dosen't like the BIB. Again each barrel is different, you just have to find what your particular barrel likes and then run with it.
Hope this helps.
Danny Reever
I think that experts have proven that the bumble bee can't fly, but the bee doesn't know that.
I believe the "well known ballistics guru" got in a arguement with Jackie Schmidt over on Benchrest Central about weather conditions and how they affect how a gun performs, saying it is impossible to have enough of an effect on how powder burns to change how a rifle shoots.
I think that math only goes so far, and then the real world takes over.
If the theory is disproven by reality, get a new theory because reality doesn't care about the theory.
I believe the "well known ballistics guru" got in a arguement with Jackie Schmidt over on Benchrest Central about weather conditions and how they affect how a gun performs, saying it is impossible to have enough of an effect on how powder burns to change how a rifle shoots.
I think that math only goes so far, and then the real world takes over.
If the theory is disproven by reality, get a new theory because reality doesn't care about the theory.
P.
I think where you are down under it will come down to what bullet you can actually get at a reasonable cost. I know Randy of "BIB" does not export out of country so that pretty much eliminates that bullet,,not to mention the cost factor) unless you could talk Sinclair,who does export) into it, but then again you'll be getting some expensive bullets.
Since your aim is "Minute of Rabbit" LOL! perhaps you'd be better served with some lighter weight choices. If not, I'd still suggest the Berger 90 grain BT for pure accuracy in that weight range. Again availability will probably influence your choice.
No, you didn't start a war, I just wanted to clarify my position since anytime an article, or even a thread for that matter is pulled it makes anything the author stated as suspect for that article/thread, and for future postings. For example, Jackie Schmidt's barrel test wasn't pulled because the Lapua 105's wouldn't shoot in his .237 bore, so I really see no reason why my article was pulled because the Berger 95's wouldn't shoot in someone Else's barrel.
Another point is that as I stated before in regard to actual barrel twist I said my barrel was a ten twist because that's what Shilen said it was, that's what was stamped on it, so in my mind IT WAS A TEN TWIST. Yes, I actually measured it as near as I could after the "Ballistic Guru" thrashed my results. It measured about a 9.8 which in my mind is still a ten twist regardless of what anyone says. No barrel manufacturer that I know of is going to take the time and measure each barrel they turn out and then mark and sell them as a 9.7/9.8/9.9/10.0/10.1/10.2/10.3 etc.etc. etc. Oh, I guess if you'd offer to include another C note, they'd be more than happy to hand pick one for you, but barrels cost enough already don't they.
Again, I'm just trying to clarify my position.
Danny
I think where you are down under it will come down to what bullet you can actually get at a reasonable cost. I know Randy of "BIB" does not export out of country so that pretty much eliminates that bullet,,not to mention the cost factor) unless you could talk Sinclair,who does export) into it, but then again you'll be getting some expensive bullets.
Since your aim is "Minute of Rabbit" LOL! perhaps you'd be better served with some lighter weight choices. If not, I'd still suggest the Berger 90 grain BT for pure accuracy in that weight range. Again availability will probably influence your choice.
No, you didn't start a war, I just wanted to clarify my position since anytime an article, or even a thread for that matter is pulled it makes anything the author stated as suspect for that article/thread, and for future postings. For example, Jackie Schmidt's barrel test wasn't pulled because the Lapua 105's wouldn't shoot in his .237 bore, so I really see no reason why my article was pulled because the Berger 95's wouldn't shoot in someone Else's barrel.
Another point is that as I stated before in regard to actual barrel twist I said my barrel was a ten twist because that's what Shilen said it was, that's what was stamped on it, so in my mind IT WAS A TEN TWIST. Yes, I actually measured it as near as I could after the "Ballistic Guru" thrashed my results. It measured about a 9.8 which in my mind is still a ten twist regardless of what anyone says. No barrel manufacturer that I know of is going to take the time and measure each barrel they turn out and then mark and sell them as a 9.7/9.8/9.9/10.0/10.1/10.2/10.3 etc.etc. etc. Oh, I guess if you'd offer to include another C note, they'd be more than happy to hand pick one for you, but barrels cost enough already don't they.
Again, I'm just trying to clarify my position.
Danny
We have an excellent custom projectile maker over here by the name of Robinson or CDC projectiles.
He can make just about anything you want provided ha can get the jackets.
He just sent me a sample of some custom specced 60 grain .224 FBHP's I ask him to prototype for me.
My scales aren't accurate enough for me to find a weight variation in the whole batch that I have sampled.
I have asked him for some 75 grain 10 Ogive or better FBHP for me to try in the 6 BR when it's ready.
THanks for your help DR and could you please e-mail me the article so I can make my own decision on it.
THanks
later
P
He can make just about anything you want provided ha can get the jackets.
He just sent me a sample of some custom specced 60 grain .224 FBHP's I ask him to prototype for me.
My scales aren't accurate enough for me to find a weight variation in the whole batch that I have sampled.
I have asked him for some 75 grain 10 Ogive or better FBHP for me to try in the 6 BR when it's ready.
THanks for your help DR and could you please e-mail me the article so I can make my own decision on it.
THanks
later
P
Danny,,,I thought your 10 twist article was good. In fact I bought and chambered a 10 twist Hart barrel after reading it. My barrel shoots 95 Bergers good. The only problem I had with them was when the temperature was low, like around 30 degrees. They didn't group as well then.
Greg, from Clinch River made me up some 89gr. VLD's and they shot great. Also the 90 gr Bergers shoot and group good as well. I have tried the Berger 69gr. Low Drag flat base bullet and love the way it performs. I load 33.5 gr. of Varget and it gives me 3350 fps of velocity. This would be a great "live varmint" load in this gun out to 500 or 600 yds. With the 89 Clinch Rivers and 31grs. of N-140, and CCI-450 primers, the velocity is 2995fps. I shot a group with them last weekend at Piedmont during the 600yd match. It measured 3.557 inches. Not bad for a wood stocked groundhog gun shooting off bipods.
You are right. Sometimes things in the real world are just different that what they are supposed to be. Danny, I too would like a copy of your article if you would be so kind. My e-mail is waterdog540@charter.net
Greg, from Clinch River made me up some 89gr. VLD's and they shot great. Also the 90 gr Bergers shoot and group good as well. I have tried the Berger 69gr. Low Drag flat base bullet and love the way it performs. I load 33.5 gr. of Varget and it gives me 3350 fps of velocity. This would be a great "live varmint" load in this gun out to 500 or 600 yds. With the 89 Clinch Rivers and 31grs. of N-140, and CCI-450 primers, the velocity is 2995fps. I shot a group with them last weekend at Piedmont during the 600yd match. It measured 3.557 inches. Not bad for a wood stocked groundhog gun shooting off bipods.
You are right. Sometimes things in the real world are just different that what they are supposed to be. Danny, I too would like a copy of your article if you would be so kind. My e-mail is waterdog540@charter.net
Sorry guys, I don't have a copy of that one even for myself.
If Paul our Moderator has kept one perhaps he can e-mail it to me and I'll forward it on to you.
Waterdog: I agree, in temperatures below thirty degrees the 95 VLD lacked performance. Then again just about anything I do shoot lacks performance when it's cold, although I think it's me who can't take the cold anymore. LOL! Hunting's one thing, but bench shooting and freezing my a** off dosen't go together anymore! In fact if it's pouring down rain, even with a covered firing line I'll leave the rifle in the truck!
You know, each barrel is different, and even if you buy another exactly the same make/twist/contour/etc. chamber it with the same reamer as before, and mount it on the same action there's still no guarantee it will shoot as well.
Right now the eight twist Kreiger with .237 bore that I have is as close to the elusive hummer as I've ever gotten,,it might even be one, if such an animal exists) even better than that ten twist Shilen at the long yardages. So good in fact I won't shoot it as much in an effort not to waste it playing around,which is exactly what I did with the Shilen). It want's to shoot only one bullet well, and that's the Berger 105 VLD. That's not a problem, if that's what it wants, then that's what I'll feed it.
They are all different, and so are the results. I guess that's what keeps us coming back for more.
Danny
If Paul our Moderator has kept one perhaps he can e-mail it to me and I'll forward it on to you.
Waterdog: I agree, in temperatures below thirty degrees the 95 VLD lacked performance. Then again just about anything I do shoot lacks performance when it's cold, although I think it's me who can't take the cold anymore. LOL! Hunting's one thing, but bench shooting and freezing my a** off dosen't go together anymore! In fact if it's pouring down rain, even with a covered firing line I'll leave the rifle in the truck!
You know, each barrel is different, and even if you buy another exactly the same make/twist/contour/etc. chamber it with the same reamer as before, and mount it on the same action there's still no guarantee it will shoot as well.
Right now the eight twist Kreiger with .237 bore that I have is as close to the elusive hummer as I've ever gotten,,it might even be one, if such an animal exists) even better than that ten twist Shilen at the long yardages. So good in fact I won't shoot it as much in an effort not to waste it playing around,which is exactly what I did with the Shilen). It want's to shoot only one bullet well, and that's the Berger 105 VLD. That's not a problem, if that's what it wants, then that's what I'll feed it.
They are all different, and so are the results. I guess that's what keeps us coming back for more.
Danny
This thresd has shed a light I have noticed. I've been playing with my 6 BRX, 8 twist Lilja barrel on my Bat SV and have noticed it loves the Berger 105's. And it seems to love N 140 better than Varget. I'm useing F 205 match primers and ES has been around 8. While working up loads with N 140 every other load increase would be in the low .2's to .3 @ 100 yds, never have seen this before, maybe it's just me. These 105's have been the easiest VLD's I've ever loaded for. Just jam em, add N140 and shoot. I've stopped at 34.5 grs. it has shot very well on varmints so far out to 900 yds. Still playing with this caliber but thought I would throw my .002 cents worth in.
Varmints For Fun
Varmints For Fun
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I guess I should chime in that "delinking" the article was no reflection on Danny's work or the results he achieved in his rifle. Danny has been with this site from the very beginning and has authored a number of great articles.
It came down to this--many of our readers are buying/building their first custom rifle. This is a big deal for them, an expensive proposition. I just didn't want someone to order up a 10-twist rig specifically to shoot the 95 Bergers and then find it didn't work,in their conditions and altitudes). That said, with a relatively fast barrel in warm weather, it should work. David Stripling has had great success with the 95s in a ten-twist but he's running a 6 BRDX, sort of a long-neck Dasher that has about 1.5 grains more capacity than a std case:
It recent months we've seen plenty of evidence that, with the small 6BR case, velocities can vary significantly,up to 130 fps) from barrel to barrel,even from the same manufacturer). If you're lucky enough to have a fast tube, with a twist rate on the low side of 1:10", the 95s can work. Conversely, if you've got one of those barrels that seems to max out at 2850 or so, you may have problems. I just didn't want somebody to go to the expense of building a 10-twist rifle to shoot the 95s and be disappointed. The problem is that nobody seems to be able to predict whether a barrel is going to be fast or slow until it is chambered and screwed on and tested.
Anyway, in reponse to requests, I've put the article back online with a big caution at the top to the effect that Berger 95 stability is borderline in a 10-twist, and that some barrels may work, while others do not.
Here's the article: http://www.6mmbr.com/10twistbarrels.html
It came down to this--many of our readers are buying/building their first custom rifle. This is a big deal for them, an expensive proposition. I just didn't want someone to order up a 10-twist rig specifically to shoot the 95 Bergers and then find it didn't work,in their conditions and altitudes). That said, with a relatively fast barrel in warm weather, it should work. David Stripling has had great success with the 95s in a ten-twist but he's running a 6 BRDX, sort of a long-neck Dasher that has about 1.5 grains more capacity than a std case:
It recent months we've seen plenty of evidence that, with the small 6BR case, velocities can vary significantly,up to 130 fps) from barrel to barrel,even from the same manufacturer). If you're lucky enough to have a fast tube, with a twist rate on the low side of 1:10", the 95s can work. Conversely, if you've got one of those barrels that seems to max out at 2850 or so, you may have problems. I just didn't want somebody to go to the expense of building a 10-twist rifle to shoot the 95s and be disappointed. The problem is that nobody seems to be able to predict whether a barrel is going to be fast or slow until it is chambered and screwed on and tested.
Anyway, in reponse to requests, I've put the article back online with a big caution at the top to the effect that Berger 95 stability is borderline in a 10-twist, and that some barrels may work, while others do not.
Here's the article: http://www.6mmbr.com/10twistbarrels.html
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SnakeEye said:
SnakeEye,
I had a similar experience with Norma 203B--it had a huge window of accuracy. Basically everything I tried from a mild 2840 fps to 2960 fps,too hot in summer) shot really well. 203B is not currently available in the USA, but RL15 is a very similar powder.
Thanks Paul for the kind words. Paul's right, there are so many factors that come into play, choice of powder, primers, bullets, etc.
When Jackie Schmidt was getting such phenomenal results with the Berger 105's in his .237 bore test barrel using Reloader 15 I tried that combination in my then current Shilen eight twist, and it shot pretty darned good. Good enough in fact for me to buy a 5 pound jug from Powder Valley. Well, cutting to the long and short of it when I tried this combination in my new Kreiger eight twist .237 bore I just couldn't get it to shoot no matter what combination I tried. I switched back to Varget and bingo it shot fantastic. I talked to Jackie for about an hour on the phone and he told me he couldn't get Varget to perform for him, but the Reloader 15 in his barrel was the ticket. So here we have two Kreigers, both eight twists with .237 bores, with identical .060 freebores both with marked powder preferences.
The best advice I can give you, is don't put all your eggs in one basket. If you throat that new barrel way long in an effort to use lets say the BIB 121 grain bullet, and it dosen't shoot well then what are your options? Sometimes playing it a little safer, be it a bit faster twist, or a shorter freebore, can make the difference between finding a combination that will shoot in your new barrel or endless frustration. You need to consider the whole picture along with your expectations before you even place that barrel order.
Danny
When Jackie Schmidt was getting such phenomenal results with the Berger 105's in his .237 bore test barrel using Reloader 15 I tried that combination in my then current Shilen eight twist, and it shot pretty darned good. Good enough in fact for me to buy a 5 pound jug from Powder Valley. Well, cutting to the long and short of it when I tried this combination in my new Kreiger eight twist .237 bore I just couldn't get it to shoot no matter what combination I tried. I switched back to Varget and bingo it shot fantastic. I talked to Jackie for about an hour on the phone and he told me he couldn't get Varget to perform for him, but the Reloader 15 in his barrel was the ticket. So here we have two Kreigers, both eight twists with .237 bores, with identical .060 freebores both with marked powder preferences.
The best advice I can give you, is don't put all your eggs in one basket. If you throat that new barrel way long in an effort to use lets say the BIB 121 grain bullet, and it dosen't shoot well then what are your options? Sometimes playing it a little safer, be it a bit faster twist, or a shorter freebore, can make the difference between finding a combination that will shoot in your new barrel or endless frustration. You need to consider the whole picture along with your expectations before you even place that barrel order.
Danny
Have the reamer already: PTG floating .272 0.65 FB for lapua.
Have the action already- Tikka 595
Just have to get the new barrel to be fitted.
This is causing problems- massive delay on getting one out of CONUS even worse delay from the "quality" makers in AU.
Can get one tommorrow from the mid level makers but I'm not that desperate that I'm willing to compromise.
Thanks all for the PM's and info you have given.
Still debating a 1:8 or a 1:9 or a 1:10 to purchase.
Memeber its a 95% varmint rifle.
later
p
Have the action already- Tikka 595
Just have to get the new barrel to be fitted.
This is causing problems- massive delay on getting one out of CONUS even worse delay from the "quality" makers in AU.
Can get one tommorrow from the mid level makers but I'm not that desperate that I'm willing to compromise.
Thanks all for the PM's and info you have given.
Still debating a 1:8 or a 1:9 or a 1:10 to purchase.
Memeber its a 95% varmint rifle.
later
p
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