D-Day: Sobering little-known facts

[Brians356]

Understandably, infantry losses in Operation Overlord have garnered the most attention. But here's something historian and author Stanley Weintraub wrote in his book about US generals Eisenhower, MacArthur, and Marshall "15 Stars" (2007) that I'll bet few have been aware of:

Between April 1 and June 5 [1944] the RAF and USAAF lost over 2,000 aircraft and 12,000 men in pre-D-Day operations.

That's right, losses incurred solely during training exercises and other mostly non-combat activity in the months before D-Day!

By the end of August aircrew casualties supporting the Normandy operations would pass 28,000. The RAF was no longer changing the oil in bomber engines, assuming that it wasted fuel to replenish a plane certain to be downed.
-

 

[K22]

I could be wrong about this, but I believe I remember reading that the US B17 flight crews that conducted the daylight precision bombing raids over Germany had the highest Allied per unit casualties in the European theater of operations during WWII.

The movie 12 O'clock High was made about these units.

 

[FNSafari]

Whatever caused the powers to be to think that daylight raids over Germany would succeed was just sinful. They had good intel on German air and anti-aircraft defenses. What a blunder!

 

[TrapperBR549]

Whatever caused the powers to be to think that daylight raids over Germany would succeed was just sinful. They had good intel on German air and anti-aircraft defenses. What a blunder!

Its been awhile ago but I read an analysis of our strategy vs the Brits. The daylight runs were so much more accurate that it made up for the losses, in a nutshell.

 

[Rick in Oregon]

Its been awhile ago but I read an analysis of our strategy vs the Brits. The daylight runs were so much more accurate that it made up for the losses, in a nutshell.

Unless you were in one of those daylight raids.

 

[1K6BRA]

Every person in this country who claims to hate the United States of America, should be made to spend an hour with a service man still alive that served during this time.

 

[TrapperBR549]

Unless you were in one of those daylight raids.

True but if you have to fly 3 night missions or 1 daylight missions to accomplish the same thing it might change your opinion.

 

[bugman]

Overloaded gliders drop like a rock.

 

[wedgy]

Whatever caused the powers to be to think that daylight raids over Germany would succeed was just sinful. They had good intel on German air and anti-aircraft defenses. What a blunder!

I read that they didn't listen to the RAF who bombed at night and thought that the gunners on the bombers would work against the attacking German fighter planes, but after huge losses they switched to night raids.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Its been awhile ago but I read an analysis of our strategy vs the Brits. The daylight runs were so much more accurate that it made up for the losses, in a nutshell.

The technology wasn't available at that time to do semi-accurate bombing during the night time hours.

 

[M-61]

I could be wrong about this, but I believe I remember reading that the US B17 flight crews that conducted the daylight precision bombing raids over Germany had the highest Allied per unit casualties in the European theater of operations during WWII.

The movie 12 O'clock High was made about these units.

8th USAAF losses in bombing was (28,000) more than the entire USMC in all of WW2.
I mention this NOT to start a pissing match but merely to put this in perspective.
When I say ‘losses’ I mean KIA , not casualties.

 

[FNSafari]

I read that they didn't listen to the RAF who bombed at night and thought that the gunners on the bombers would work against the attacking German fighter planes, but after huge losses they switched to night raids.

Yes the "flying fortress" with all those 50 cals was formidable, but certainly not a fortress. The Germans had a powerful airfare at that time with some really good, experienced pilots.

 

[FNSafari]

Its been awhile ago but I read an analysis of our strategy vs the Brits. The daylight runs were so much more accurate that it made up for the losses, in a nutshell.

To some extent, but in the end they stopped the daylight slaughter flights.

 

[M-61]

Understandably, infantry losses in Operation Overlord have garnered the most attention. But here's something historian and author Stanley Weintraub wrote in his book about US generals Eisenhower, MacArthur, and Marshall "15 Stars" (2007) that I'll bet few have been aware of:

Between April 1 and June 5 [1944] the RAF and USAAF lost over 2,000 aircraft and 12,000 men in pre-D-Day operations.

That's right, losses incurred solely during training exercises and other mostly non-combat activity in the months before D-Day!

By the end of August aircrew casualties supporting the Normandy operations would pass 28,000. The RAF was no longer changing the oil in bomber engines, assuming that it wasted fuel to replenish a plane certain to be downed.
-

That's right, losses incurred solely during training exercises and other mostly non-combat activity in the months before D-Day!

Never read or heard of his book.
Did he at least ‘mention’ Slapton Sands’? AKA ‘Operation’ (or exercise) ‘Tiger’?
“Non-combat activity”. There’s many definitions of that. What’s the difference if you’re dead, who fired the round?

 

[M-61]

The RAF was no longer changing the oil in bomber engines, assuming that it wasted fuel to replenish a plane certain to be downed

Really?
Then why not just put enough fuel for a one way flight? Save fuel and oil.
I’ll call this pure bullshit.

 

[Infrequent Shooter]

Whatever caused the powers to be to think that daylight raids over Germany would succeed was just sinful. They had good intel on German air and anti-aircraft defenses. What a blunder!

Lots of ego involved IMO. And I have read that it very little effect.

 

[Eagle Six]

My former father-in-law was US Army who served in Engineers and was part of Operation Tiger, they referred to as Exercise Tiger. He said they died by the hundreds due to many mistakes. He was narrowly rescued. The mistakes made and corrected may have saved thousands on D-Day.

 

[TrapperBR549]

I can't vouch for the accuracy but this was an interesting read. https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/a...g-dangerous-doctrine-of-the-eighth-air-force/

 

[3Sigma]

Whatever caused the powers to be to think that daylight raids over Germany would succeed was just sinful. They had good intel on German air and anti-aircraft defenses. What a blunder!

The Bomber Mafia

Dive into this “truly compelling” (Good Morning America) New York Times bestseller that explores how technology and best intentions collide in the heat o...

www.gladwellbooks.com

That book goes into the development of US strategic bombing doctrine, it's success, and the reasons for its ultimate abandonment against Japan by LeMay.

 

[craigd]

Every person in this country who claims to hate the United States of America, should be made to spend an hour with a service man still alive that served during this time.

Or crawl into the tail gunners cockpit and watch the flack stream by...