Custom bullets and VLDs

[Hengehold]

I shoot prone matches 600yds-1000yds. Whenever I shop around looking at custom Bullet options, it seems like the only choices for a long range appropriate Bullet are in a VLD shape. I have been heavily involved in competitive shooting for 15 years and have always avoided VLD bullets like the plague due to seating depth sensitivity and having to chase the throat, etc.

Why aren’t there more non-VLD shaped custom Bullets?

Shortly before Bob Cauterucio passed away I had him make a 6.5mm 152gr tangent Bullet for me. He never made that size/weight/shape before but he made 100 of them just for me to test. it sounded like the dies were modular and he could change between nose shapes if so desired. If that is indeed the case, I would think Bullet makers could offer a wider option of Bullets with VLD and Tangent options.

-T

 

[JRS]

VLD bullets are not the end-all.

 

[BenPerfected]

I shoot prone matches 600yds-1000yds. Whenever I shop around looking at custom Bullet options, it seems like the only choices for a long range appropriate Bullet are in a VLD shape. I have been heavily involved in competitive shooting for 15 years and have always avoided VLD bullets like the plague due to seating depth sensitivity and having to chase the throat, etc.

Why aren’t there more non-VLD shaped custom Bullets?

Shortly before Bob Cauterucio passed away I had him make a 6.5mm 152gr tangent Bullet for me. He never made that size/weight/shape before but he made 100 of them just for me to test. it sounded like the dies were modular and he could change between nose shapes if so desired. If that is indeed the case, I would think Bullet makers could offer a wider option of Bullets with VLD and Tangent options.

-T

Is it only the VLD bullets that are causing barrel wear? How much BC are you willing to trade off? Just asking questions....I don’t know Jack.
Ben

 

[CharlieNC]

-T I shot Lapua 123 Scenar in my 6.5x47. Not sensitive on seating and shot well out to 1200yd. Then I started chasing higher BC in the 140gr mainly for reduced wind deflection. After a year I'm ready to switch back. Take a look at the Scenar.

 

[Bob3700]

[
I don't necessarily shoot VLD bullets but certainly shoot boattails almost exclusively. Shoot MR and LR prone, sling. The higher BC of these bullets definitely has an advantage in wind drift. My bullet seating is controlled by the rifle as I soft seat my bullets long and let the rifling determine the depth. I never chase a throat. All of my rifles, 6MM BRX, 308 Palma, and 243 SLR are loaded .020-.040" long. All have produced "Cleans" at 600-1000k yds.

You may shoot a larger number of rounds that I do each year, so bbl wear may be more of an issue for you. We shoot 600 yds every Sunday from 20-40 rounds. Maybe three or four matches a season.

 

[dcali]

The type of ogive is less important than other details. When people say VLD, they usually mean an aggressively pointed secant ogive. But a lot of “tangent” ogives are actually just mild secant ogives. Both types of bullets have their place.

The reason you don’t see a lot of tangent ogive bullets designed for long range is that you pay a price in the form of a lower BC. You have to balance the lower drag of a VLD shape with the higher weight of a blunter design, since both weight and drag contribute to BC.

And that is just BC. Weight distribution plays a role in stability, required twist rates and inherent accuracy. My theory as to why VLDs *can* be more sensitive is that it's simply harder to start a steeper ogive straight into the rifling. You can see this effect if you use a Hornady-style comparator to measure base to ogive. It's very easy to get a repeatable measurement on a tangent ogive, but you have to be careful to keep the bullet straight with a VLD or it will tip on you.

I think a lot of precision long range shooters are willing to take that trade, though - the guys who don't seem to mind testing seating depth in .003" increments. If you're going to do that anyhow, why not use a VLD?

Bottom line is that there are a lot of trade offs to good bullet design. VLDs are just one way to skin a cat, and are by no means the only way to make a good bullet. It's just a matter of what you want to emphasize.

(Forgive me for tooting my own horn for a moment, but some here know I’ve recently started a custom bullet business, and I’ve been thinking A LOT about this exact question. The first one I’ve designed is a pretty aggressive VLD-like design. But I’ve got another one in the works that’s on the other end of the spectrum. Not a tangent, but close, and it has some other interesting features that I’m not going to mention yet. Gotta leave some suspense. Ok. End of shameless plug.)

 

[Hengehold]

The type of ogive is less important than other details. When people say VLD, they usually mean an aggressively pointed secant ogive. But a lot of “tangent” ogives are actually just mild secant ogives. Both types of bullets have their place.

The reason you don’t see a lot of tangent ogive bullets designed for long range is that you pay a price in the form of a lower BC. You have to balance the lower drag of a VLD shape with the higher weight of a blunter design, since both weight and drag contribute to BC.

And that is just BC. Weight distribution plays a role in stability, required twist rates and inherent accuracy. My theory as to why VLDs *can* be more sensitive is that it's simply harder to start a steeper ogive straight into the rifling. You can see this effect if you use a Hornady-style comparator to measure base to ogive. It's very easy to get a repeatable measurement on a tangent ogive, but you have to be careful to keep the bullet straight with a VLD or it will tip on you.

I think a lot of precision long range shooters are willing to take that trade, though - the guys who don't seem to mind testing seating depth in .003" increments. If you're going to do that anyhow, why not use a VLD?

Bottom line is that there are a lot of trade offs to good bullet design. VLDs are just one way to skin a cat, and are by no means the only way to make a good bullet. It's just a matter of what you want to emphasize.

(Forgive me for tooting my own horn for a moment, but some here know I’ve recently started a custom bullet business, and I’ve been thinking A LOT about this exact question. The first one I’ve designed is a pretty aggressive VLD-like design. But I’ve got another one in the works that’s on the other end of the spectrum. Not a tangent, but close, and it has some other interesting features that I’m not going to mention yet. Gotta leave some suspense. Ok. End of shameless plug.)

Thanks for the response. I think a good comparison that I am refering to in the OP can be seen in the Berger bullet lineup. In the 6mm class there are the following bullets available:

105 BT Target - G7=.253
105 VLD - G7=.265
108 BT Target - G7=.268

They are all pretty damn close in their BC rating. However, the BT Target shape would lend itself to quickly finding and MAINTAINING a tight group. I fully understand that the VLD typically comes with a slightly higher BC than a same-weight tangent bullet. I am trying to say that I am surprised that Berger is the only custom bullet manufacturer that offers a good mix of tangent and secant options. For example, a great bullet maker like JLK does not offer a tangent option for any of their bullets. If you are getting into the bullet business, I hope you offer a product line that gives us the option to shoot a VLD or a tangent shape bullet or even a hybrid style to choose from.

Thanks,
-T

 

[dcali]

Thanks for the response. I think a good comparison that I am refering to in the OP can be seen in the Berger bullet lineup. In the 6mm class there are the following bullets available:

105 BT Target - G7=.253
105 VLD - G7=.265
108 BT Target - G7=.268

They are all pretty damn close in their BC rating. However, the BT Target shape would lend itself to quickly finding and MAINTAINING a tight group. I fully understand that the VLD typically comes with a slightly higher BC than a same-weight tangent bullet. I am trying to say that I am surprised that Berger is the only custom bullet manufacturer that offers a good mix of tangent and secant options. For example, a great bullet maker like JLK does not offer a tangent option for any of their bullets. If you are getting into the bullet business, I hope you offer a product line that gives us the option to shoot a VLD or a tangent shape bullet or even a hybrid style to choose from.

Thanks,
-T

That's the thing - the 105 BT Target (and the 108) is not a tangent ogive. It's just a more mild secant ogive, as are most bullets that people refer to as tangent ogives. There are a good many bullets that are in between tangent and VLD (which is a vague definition to begin with). How aggressive the bullet designer gets with the nose determines the drag efficiency of the bullet, but with trade-offs in weight distribution and potentially more sensitive seating depths. It's all a balancing act. And yes, I agree that there is good reason to offer different types of bullets.

 

[JRS]

BiBullets. Randy's bullets have the Tangent ogive configuration.