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confused about calibration weights.

recently my gempro 250 scale has started being off close to 2gr after trying to do the linear calibration rather than single weight calibration. i can only guess that this is because one of the calibration weights is off which is possible since they were all free with one scale or another over the past few years, im sure they were made as cheap as possible.

while looking to replace them i see them listed from just a few dollars to hundreds of dollars each. obviously i dont want to replace one junk weight with another junk weight but i also dont want to spend tons of money on them either

so what im wondering is which ones are accurate enough without costing an arm and a leg? the scale uses 20gr and 50gr weights.
 
also if it matters it is reading 50.12gr on a 53 grain vmax that 2 separate lee beam scales and a frankford arsonal digital all say weights 53.0gr...

sadly i just did a full load workup for a rifle with this scale without realizing it was off because it still reads a 20g calibration weight at 308.65gr and untill recently its never given me any reason to doubt it.

im guessing THIS class m2 set is no where near good enough
 
20 grams equals 308.647 grains. If check weight is correct it is only off .003 grain. 308.65 grain equals 20.0001836 gram. I suspect that your scales are pretty close to their specs.
 
20 grams equals 308.647 grains. If check weight is correct it is only off .025 grain. 308.65 grain equals 20.0001836 gram. I suspect that your scales are pretty close to their specs.
That is the issue I am having only the 20 gram check weight measures right the lower weights are all off Buy close to 2 grains

Like i said it worked great and was reliable when I only used the 20gram weight. It read the same as my other scales. After I tried the linear cal using both the 20g and 50g is when it started acting up. I can only guess that stacking the tolerances of two low grade check weights threw it off
 
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That is the issue I am having only the 20 gram check weight measures right the lower weights are all off Buy close to 2 grains

Like i said it worked great and was reliable when I only used the 20gram weight. It read the same as my other scales. After I tried the linear cal using both the 20g and 50g is when it started acting up. I can only guess that stacking the tolerances of two low grade check weights threw it off

It is unlikely that your calibration weight is off by that much. The difference in calibration weight is not because they vary by 2 grains but because they vary by small fractions of 2 grains. That super exact calibration weight is needed for very accurate balances and specific task, neither of which relates to the GemPro 250. That is not to say that the GemPro is inaccurate but that accuracy is relative.

If you have another scale that is giving you reasonable accuracy reading the Vmax, I would suggest you put both of those weights on the scale and see what they give you. You should have two calibration weights for the linear GemPro calibration – a 20 gram and a 50 gram. Put it on your Frankford Arsenal and see what they read at? 20 grams =308.647 grains and 50 grams = 771.618 grains.

My guess is you did something wrong when doing the linear calibration. The other thing you should check is what does the GemPro read when you put each of the two calibration weights on it. It should read two of the above numbers reasonably close.
 
I'll try that when I get home but either way the scale has worked great for two years with regular use now it doesn't with the only change being me doing the linear calibration with the 50g weight that came with the cheap FA scales. Doing it wrong was my first thought too but I've redone it probably 20 times in the last 48 hrs with the same result. It's not a long process and seems simple so I don't think I screwed it up. It's more sensitive than the FA scale by a decimal place so needing a more accurate weight than the FA doest seem all that far fetched to me
 
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I load with a Gempro 250 and personally see no need for the two weight linear calibration. I just calibrate with the single 20g weight and it does fine.

What I do to check the scale is this... first I weigh my empty powder pan. I know what it should weigh. It's on within .02 grain every time I load. Then I have a "check weight" that I made out of a piece of a screw that I filed down. It weighs 45.00 grains and is right in the same range as my powder charge weight. After I put the powder pan on the scale and zero it, I check the scale with the check weight. It's almost always on, if it's off it's by 0.02gr and recalibrating the scale with the 20g weight fixes the issue.

Then I know my scale is weighing consistently from reloading session to reloading session. I could care less if the scale is accurate to an absolute perfect standard, because all that matters is that I load the same powder charge weight as what I did in load development.
 
recently my gempro 250 scale has started being off close to 2gr after trying to do the linear calibration rather than single weight calibration. i can only guess that this is because one of the calibration weights is off which is possible since they were all free with one scale or another over the past few years, im sure they were made as cheap as possible.

while looking to replace them i see them listed from just a few dollars to hundreds of dollars each. obviously i dont want to replace one junk weight with another junk weight but i also dont want to spend tons of money on them either

so what im wondering is which ones are accurate enough without costing an arm and a leg? the scale uses 20gr and 50gr weights.

Make sure the weights have not become slightly magnetized. Don't know of a procedure to check them. See if fine iron filings stick to the weight?
 
I load with a Gempro 250 and personally see no need for the two weight linear calibration. I just calibrate with the single 20g weight and it does fine.
.
In hindsight I agree 100% but now I don't see any other way to fix it. 2great off is damn near 10% off on my .223 loads.

In my mind the only option I see working is to recalibrate using two higher quality check weights. I say two because just doing the single point calibration with the 20gr weight I always used in the past does nothing. It still shows a known 53gr object as just under 51gr. Up until late the 2 point linear cal it showed 53.0x gr just like my other 3 scales.

It sucks that I have multiple other scales but I have become spoiled by the 0.01 resoloution of the gempro
 
Have you looked at possible interference from a Electrical source cell phone etc.
I have a Gem pro 250 . It has once or twice had a small fit . I find the trouble is do to Temp. out of level , Air movement from a Fan.
Do you keep the power on 24-7 ?
Best of Luck
Don
 
Like many other things in the shooting game, high quality calibration weights (meaning ones whose indicated weight values you can trust) are not cheap. If your scale is now off after doing a 2 point calibration, it is likely because of one or both of the following reasons. #1 - One (or more) of your calibration weights are off. #2 - many instruments such as laboratory balances and pH meters can be calibrated using multiple calibration standards (points). The idea is to calibrate the instrument across its entire usable response range. The theory behind this approach is typically that the instrument will have a window in which its response is theoretically linear. However, in many cases the response is not linear. It may be moderately close to linear, but it's not truly linear. Multi-point calibration of such an instrument with high quality, accurate standards will usually result in better accuracy across the usable response range of the instrument. That does not mean it will be dead nuts, spot-on accurate across the entire range, because the response wasn't perfectly linear to begin with. How far each of the calibration standard values fall away the actual response curve of the instrument will give you some idea of how much better the overall calibration across the entire range will be. The farther off each standard falls (i.e. the farther away from true linear response the instruments recorded values are), the farther away from a true (accurate) reading the instrument will give after being calibrated. It may give fairly "good" readings across the entire range, but none of them will be truly "accurate".

Because of reason #2 above, it is not uncommon to see an instrument that will only be used for measurement in a very narrow response window to be calibrated with a single very accurate standard that falls right in the middle of the response window in which it will be used. Most instruments' responses deviate from linear behavior at either end of the usable range. So using calibration standards that fall at either end of the range have a tendency to throw values recorded in the middle of the range farther off from "true". For example, calibrating a pH meter that has an effective usable range of 1.0 to about 12.0 with standards of pH 2.0, 7.0, and 10.0 will typically mean you get pretty good values across the entire range. Not perfect, but pretty good. However, if you're only going to be measuring samples that are all very close to pH 7.0, you might end up with more accurate readings if you use only the single pH 7.0 standard, and don't try to "force" the calibration curve to accommodate the additional calibration points at either end of the range.

Having said all that, how do you "know" which of the weights measured are actually off? If I understand you correctly, you're saying that after you calibrate the scale with both the 20 gr and 50 gr calibration weights, then weigh some of your other calibration weights, the readings you get don't match the value on the weight. So is the scale itself off? Are some of your standard weight values off? Or is the 2-point calibration "forcing" the standard curve to be off? Or some combination of all 3? The easiest fix is simply to go back to a single point calibration with whichever standard weight you were using before. Alternatively, if you know someone with a good analytical balance, you could check your standard weights using a different balance to see what kind of values you get, or even borrow their calibration weights, if they're of good quality. The last solution is to simply buy a quality set yourself. As I think you've already found, they're not cheap.

Your dilemma is that you are now unsure of your powder charge weights due to the calibration issue. However, I can possibly ease your mind somewhat. Many of the things we measure in reloading aren't absolute values. For example, seating depth is usually measured in relation to some point, such as "touching" the lands, if you use something like the Hornady OAL gauge. In reality, the actual "true" measurement could be off by as much as .005", although +/- .002"-.003" should be achievable if you're careful. But it doesn't matter for our purposes because we use it only as a reference point. Our actual seating depths can then be measured very accurately using calipers. So the distance relationship between different seating depths (i.e. - testing in .003" increments) should be very accurate and reproducible, even if they might not represent the "true" distance from the lands. The reason this works is because we ultimately measure the efficacy of changing seating depth on the target. You might believe from your measurements that the optimal seating depth was .015" off the lands, when in reality it was actually .019" off the lands. But it doesn't matter because you can reproduce the the CBTO measurement of that seating depth very accurately with your calipers, any time you load more rounds. So it doesn't matter if it's .015" off or .019" off the lands (your original reference point), you know that rounds with CBTO = 2.641" (just an example) shoot extremely well and you can reproduce rounds with that CBTO measurement whenever you like. The same is true with your balance. If you go back to the single point calibration with the standard weight that worked for you in the past, it is still possible that what you thought all along was 22.50 gr was actually 21.90 gr. As long as your balance reproducibly gives you that weight, you will be fine. It's the difference between precision (reproducibility) and accuracy. Ideally, you want both. But in a case like yours, you will need a high quality known (true) set of standards, and/or access to an additional high quality analytical balance in order to check everything. If your balance was working with a single calibration weight before, it may not be worth the effort and expense for you to try and validate everything.
 
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Exactly, it's just about repeatability... not absolute accuracy against a true standard.

Which is why something as simple as a home made check weight that weighs close to your powder charge weight is a perfectly acceptable solution. Get a stainless nail, cut it to length, fine tune with a file until it's the desired weight on your scale. Then every time you load check to make sure the scale is giving you the same results as the previous loading session.

Now the description of your problem is that the scale suddenly is a full 2 grains off from previous behavior. That's a big issue, and would hint that the scale has lost the ability to produce repeatable results. Or it would indicate that there's something really wrong with the readout of the scale. If I were in your shoes I'd clean the scale pan and base and make sure that there was no dust/dirt or loose kernels of powder under the scale pan messing with things. Then I'd set it back up, make sure it was perfectly level and warmed up/calibrated with the single 20g weight and see if that fixed the problem. If it's still off by 2 full grains against other known scales then I'd say it's dead and you should get a new one, hopefully under warranty.

I've had a couple different GemPro scales and they all produced results that were very, very close to other known accurate scales (both digital and mechanical).
 
Like many other things in the shooting game, high quality calibration weights (meaning ones whose indicated weight values you can trust) are not cheap. If your scale is now off after doing a 2 point calibration, it is likely because of one or both of the following reasons. #1 - One (or more) of your calibration weights are off.
this is what i think the culprit is and exactly why i started this thread asking which class/grade of weights i needed but everyone has looked over that part and just told me i must have screwed something up

Because of reason #2 above, it is not uncommon to see an instrument that will only be used for measurement in a very narrow response window to be calibrated with a single very accurate standard that falls right in the middle of the response window in which it will be used.
yes i understand that and am very familiar with the ph meter example. the problem with that in this case is the scale can only be calibrated using 20gram and 50 gram weight but the scale is only used to weight 25-50 grain charges.


Having said all that, how do you "know" which of the weights measured are actually off? If I understand you correctly, you're saying that after you calibrate the scale with both the 20 gr and 50 gr calibration weights, then weigh some of your other calibration weights, the readings you get don't match the value on the weight. So is the scale itself off? Are some of your standard weight values off?
i have always only used the 20gram weight to single point calibrat untill recently and the scale always read what was expected. after 2 years the scale was drifting a little bit and i thought maybe the 2 point calibration would fix it even though the instructions said that linear calibration was done at the factory and shouldnt need done. thats where the trouble started. it is a simple process that i dont think i screwed up but i think that the cheap 50 gram weight that came with the $30 frankford arsenal ditital scale was not accurate enough and threw it off.

i've had this same scale sitting in the same place and weighed a few of the same objects for 2 years now and have known what to expect to see from them along with the other scales now i never know what to expect but here are a few weights

50gram weight
frankford 771.6 grains
gempro 770.90

20gram weight
frankford 308.6 grains
gempro 308.70

53 grain vmax
frankford 53.0 grains
lee's (2) 53.0 grains
gempro 50.12 grains

dime (always this particular one)
frankford 35.0 grains
lee's (2) 35.0 grains
gempro 33.08 grains

notice its only the extreme low weights that are way off and although the higher weights are off its not by too much. i think that is because although a low quality weight will get it to read the 20 or 50 grams close to correctly i think that the high quality weights are needed to get it to be correct through more of the range. because as you eluded to being off by a tiny bit at one point in the range will be off by much more at a far away point in that range.

The last solution is to simply buy a quality set yourself. As I think you've already found, they're not cheap.
like i said above that was my intention and why i started the thread. i just dont know the classes/grades and what sort of quality i need.

i've tried redoing the 2 point calibration many many times and tried going back to single point many times over the past few days but it isnt fixing the problem. the readings change a little each time but not much and still no where near correct. i believe the factory linear calibration and single point user calibration somehow work together so if one is not correct neiither are, otherwise when i tried using the same 20 gram single point calibration i always had in the past the scale should have went back to performing the same as it used to.


at this point i think the only way to make this scale work right is to do the 2 point linear calibration with high quality calibration weights to get it to read right then going back to doing single point only for all future calibration.
 
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So the scale used to read correctly, then started to exhibit problems (drifting), then you tried linear two weight calibration, and the scale exhibited further problems (inaccuracy), then you tried going back to single weight 20g calibration but the scale still gives inaccurate results?

Personally I would replace the scale rather than buying an expensive calibration weight set. My guess is the problem is with the scale rather than the lack of precision on a 50g calibration weight. You might spend a bunch of money on check weights only to find out it didn't fix anything.

The scale has a 30 year warranty so you should be able to send it back to MyWeigh and have it get fixed or get a new one.
 
recently my gempro 250 scale has started being off close to 2gr after trying to do the linear calibration rather than single weight calibration. i can only guess that this is because one of the calibration weights is off which is possible since they were all free with one scale or another over the past few years, im sure they were made as cheap as possible.

while looking to replace them i see them listed from just a few dollars to hundreds of dollars each. obviously i dont want to replace one junk weight with another junk weight but i also dont want to spend tons of money on them either

so what im wondering is which ones are accurate enough without costing an arm and a leg? the scale uses 20gr and 50gr weights.

I could not quickly find it but somewhere on the NIST website should be able to find the range of error on the different quality of calibration weights. The worst should not be off by two grains. I'll try to look it up again.

Added minutes later:
http://www.troemner.com/reference-center-files/literature-weights/Weight-Catalog.pdf

p 16-22 gives ASTM SPEC. Looks like even a crummy cert weight would only be off a tiny fraction of a gram. There are also NIST specs. Does the GEM scale manual describe the cert class of the provided weights. Do they even fall into a NIST or ASTM cert Class? I would call them. Maybe you got a bad scale? Will they look at the scale for free or recommend something you can do. At work we used carbon filled non-static gloves for precise weighing of tiny chemical samples. I don't know if affected the accuracy, but it made a big difference in settling time.
 
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this is what i think the culprit is and exactly why i started this thread asking which class/grade of weights i needed but everyone has looked over that part and just told me i must have screwed something up

yes i understand that and am very familiar with the ph meter example. the problem with that in this case is the scale can only be calibrated using 20gram and 50 gram weight but the scale is only used to weight 25-50 grain charges.


i have always only used the 20gram weight to single point calibrat untill recently and the scale always read what was expected. after 2 years the scale was drifting a little bit and i thought maybe the 2 point calibration would fix it even though the instructions said that linear calibration was done at the factory and shouldnt need done. thats where the trouble started. it is a simple process that i dont think i screwed up but i think that the cheap 50 gram weight that came with the $30 frankford arsenal ditital scale was not accurate enough and threw it off.

i've had this same scale sitting in the same place and weighed a few of the same objects for 2 years now and have known what to expect to see from them along with the other scales now i never know what to expect but here are a few weights

50gram weight
frankford 771.6 grains
gempro 770.90

20gram weight
frankford 308.6 grains
gempro 308.70

53 grain vmax
frankford 53.0 grains
lee's (2) 53.0 grains
gempro 50.12 grains

dime (always this particular one)
frankford 35.0 grains
lee's (2) 35.0 grains
gempro 33.08 grains

notice its only the extreme low weights that are way off and although the higher weights are off its not by too much. i think that is because although a low quality weight will get it to read the 20 or 50 grams close to correctly i think that the high quality weights are needed to get it to be correct through more of the range. because as you eluded to being off by a tiny bit at one point in the range will be off by much more at a far away point in that range.

like i said above that was my intention and why i started the thread. i just dont know the classes/grades and what sort of quality i need.

i've tried redoing the 2 point calibration many many times and tried going back to single point many times over the past few days but it isnt fixing the problem. the readings change a little each time but not much and still no where near correct. i believe the factory linear calibration and single point user calibration somehow work together so if one is not correct neiither are, otherwise when i tried using the same 20 gram single point calibration i always had in the past the scale should have went back to performing the same as it used to.


at this point i think the only way to make this scale work right is to do the 2 point linear calibration with high quality calibration weights to get it to read right then going back to doing single point only for all future calibration.

Here is the problem with your conclusion that it is the 50 gram weight. As I mentioned earlier, a 50 gram weight should come in at 771.618 grains. You weight the 50 gram weigh with your Frankford and came up with 771.6 grains. So it is certainly not significantly off.

Next, you need to understand when you do a linear calibration like you did, what the scale is using those number for is to set the slope of the line that describes actual weight vs. what the scale "feel". The actual position of the line is set with the single point calibration. The reason it does not “go back” after you did it is because the slope is now set. Doing the single point does not change the slope, only doing another linear calibration will change the slope.

One might ask if using the linear calibration using weights that are significantly heavier (20 grams and 50 grams) than what you are actually weighting i.e. say the 53 grain Amax maybe the slope of the line might be 2 grains off when extrapolated to the lower weight? So let’s see…

Using ideal weights i.e. 20grams =308.647 grain and 50 grams=771.618 grains, plot the two points you will get a regression line described by the equation Y=15.432x-0.0003. So put in 3.43434 grains for x, you get 53.00 grains. So it works.

Now let’s do the same using your actual Franford data i.e. 20 grams = 308.6 grains and 50 grams = 771.6 grains. The regression line is Y=15.433x-0.0667. So again put in 3.43434 grains for x, you get 52.94 grains, so only 0.06 grains off.

Finally do the same using your GemPro data i.e. 20 grams = 308.7 grains and 50 grams = 770.9 grains. The regression line is Y=15.407x +0.5667 . So again put in 3.43434 grains for x, you get 53.48 grains. So 0.48 grains too much but still NOT 2 grains short.

From what we have, it is not possible to determine what is the cause of your problem. Certainly the scale can be faulty, but it does not look like it is your calibration standard. It could be the way you run your linear calibration but without a detailed description of how you do it, we cannot tell.
 
Certainly the scale can be faulty, but it does not look like it is your calibration standard. It could be the way you run your linear calibration but without a detailed description of how you do it, we cannot tell.

Turn on scale
Zero
Push light to enter call mode
Push units to select line mode
Press tare to verify choice and start
It blinks 20.000
I put 20g weight on
It stops blinking 20.000 showing step is complete
I take 20g weight off
It starts blinking 50.000

I put 50g weight on
Seconds later it stops blinking signaling complete
I take 50g weight off.
Scale says 0.004 or 0.006
I select grains and start verifying it is still off
 
I guess I was really just hoping it was that simple so I didn't have to go back to reloading in the stone age for 2 months while my weight deals with it. It also bothers me that I just did a full load work up for 4 rifles using that scale and only verifying it was reading the 20gram and 53 grain vmax right at the beginning of each reloading session that may be 200rds and 6hrs long. All to have numbers that only existed on that scale before it took a crap. I did not verify charges on another scale only the weights... it seems I'm very lucky and unlucky at the same time.
 
Turn on scale
Zero
Push light to enter call mode
Push units to select line mode
Press tare to verify choice and start
It blinks 20.000
I put 20g weight on
It stops blinking 20.000 showing step is complete
I take 20g weight off
It starts blinking 50.000

I put 50g weight on
Seconds later it stops blinking signaling complete
I take 50g weight off.
Scale says 0.004 or 0.006
I select grains and start verifying it is still off

The general calibration procedure is correct. However, a few things:

One is did you wait for at least 30 minutes after turning on scale to let it warm up BEFORE calibration? This is very important as a cold scale is not stable for weighting immediately after it is turned on and certainly not stable for calibration.

Second, you should run single point calibration immediately after linear calibration.

As mentioned in my earlier post, one problem with using the 20 and 50 gram calibration standards is they are of course much heavier than what you normally weight. This is the reason why it is useful to have lighter calibration weights in the 20 grain weight range to check your balance.

For all those that think this is a lot of work, I just checked how long it took me to do both calibration and to change the scale back to grains - 39 seconds and I was not hurrying.
 

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